Competition as I Carry...

TroyF

TheBearcat
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Cant have this train of thought without talking about getting off the "x".

Who Practices draws while they move?

Ben Stoeger.......

I'd assume anyone who shoots USPSA (matches, not neccesarily classifiers) at higher levels has put in some work on drawing while moving. And it is becoming the norm on some police ranges.
 

shootingbuff

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One constant that I run into with students that have already survived these kinds of things, is that there is hardly ever any time to "seek cover, get off the center line, throw up a styalized block, etc" the opening ceremony hardly allows time for that, now IF it continues past that point it DOES get dynamic, and fast, but in the words of a famous gun fighter...while I was seeking cover the basta#d shot me in the a$#, so I turned around and decked him with half a mag. Once it is time to shoot, don't flop drop roll, get to fast accurate shooting, if you can do that while moving great, but where did we learn that???..... well right back to competition.

Great points.
 

shootingbuff

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Ben Stoeger.......

I'd assume anyone who shoots USPSA (matches, not neccesarily classifiers) at higher levels has put in some work on drawing while moving. And it is becoming the norm on some police ranges.

As well as IDPA and Cowboy
 

NL7CO

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Who Practices draws while they move?

I've started to. I need to set up a video camera and just let it run for the entire practice session so I can critique myself better.

I generally shoot my TLR-1 equipped P30 for eveything except the USPSA clasifier and thanks to Blade-Tech's quick change adapter, it is easy to trade out holsters after taking the light off. I look at matches as someone else setting up the training scenario for me. When on active duty, I shot matches with a 1911 in a Bianchi M84 off of a web belt since that was my duty set up. I learned that from Rod Goodall and other members of the Colorado Springs PD who shot their matches in their duty gear with their duty weapons (S&W 5906's if I remember correctly). Those were my formative years in competitive training and it has tainted my outlook ever since. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the beauty of a gamer at the top of their game.

Since retiring, I no longer play in the "real" world and hope to never shoot another human being ever again (or to be shot at by one if I can get away with it!), but all training is still training. Whether or not you get something out of the training is another thing. My goal at matches is to shoot them clean, working on my accuracy and then speed of engagement.

Good discussion points so far. We all seem to be saying pretty much the same thing, just expressing it differently.

Don
 

KurtM

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I never practice drawing while moving, I do however have the inate ability to keep drinking as I fall over :singing:
 

TroyF

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Let me need clarify my earlier post. You should develop a decisive draw, so that it can be accomplished subconsciously, freeing up your conscious mind to assess and decide on action. Particularly when drawing on the move. When I said I didn't think the draw was that important, I was referring to a standing draw.

Thanks Mr. Cyrwus.
 

shootingbuff

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I agree somewhat. First everything is situational and part of that is awareness. If one does not have the basics of the draw/presentation then one likely will not achieve success with attempting it on the move or may even be detrimental and even hazardous to the shooter. Though I think this was implied I just wanted to get it out there.
I am still a firm believer that everything be it the draw, reloads, clearance drills, transitions, and even moving to and out of positions along with different shooting positions to include unorthodox positions is a must though if one is unaware and or the threat is close the handgun may not be effective. Not saying become superman I am saying you may find yourself tits up because you could not effectively employ the handgun due to time and distance. Of course my thought process deals with someone wanting to do bodily harm and has the means and will to do so and is either closing the gap if there is one or has the drop on you already and or is engaging you with a firearm. Its awareness first and everything else falls into place behind it.
This has been a good discussion I believe and no one has stated clearing 6 BGs with a Bill Drill and a 5 shot snub or other BS. My thoughts only.
Oh on stress of competition: I ran a stage a bunch of yrs ago with 1 threat fully exposed at 4 yds. Two stings Virgina/limited . String one had you at the low ready and you had to place one shot center mass. Two shooters missed - one was an leo and one was a really good shooter. String two you started aiming at the head. Again two shooters missed Leo and one of the good shooters (not the ones that missed on the first string) Folks if those shots can be dropped think if the stress level went up a lot and there were more mechanics involved. A CW is by no means a totem that automatically fends off the BGs and isn't any use if you can not employ it. Hell that last part pretty much sums it up for me.
May you never have to find out if your training, practice, matches etc was good enough.
 

dennishoddy

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Cant have this train of thought without talking about getting off the "x".

Who Practices draws while they move?

Actually I do, along with a buddy. We both served in the jungle, and have never forgot the need to come to arms while under fire.
Wasn't pistols at the time, but morphing into modern times with CCW, we go to our range in Ponca, and set up some scenerios where we run, draw, shoot, etc.
I've pistol hunted for small and large game enough to know that motion will screw up 99% of anybody shooting at you for accurate fire. They have never shot at anything moving.
 

Prdator

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So Im really big on the "Why's" So lets look at the idea of moving during the draw stroke in the context of a Self Defense situation. The movement is going to be a simple side step,

Reason one to move, Misses
Misses, yea lets hope the bad guy sucks at shooting and is right handed, if this is the case his "Misses" will be to his low left ( we hope) so if we move to our Left we are moving father away from his shots. Now if bad guy is Left handed well ya might want to move to your right. This is of course dependent on your surroundings if you can move, move!!!

Reason two to move, Tunnel vision
Tunnel vision will happen to you under "extreme stress" it will also happen to the bad guy, think about it, he knows what he's doing may very well get in a trip to prison or worse he picks the wrong person to jack up and they shoot him. So bad guy walks up to you in the IHOP parking lot ( that's were it happened to me) and ask's for money you tell him no and to leave you alone and he gets closer( inside about 5yards) and ask's agin, you take a big step to the left in this case and watch his face and eyes look like they just saw a magic trick, you just disappeared... In "extreme stress" your vision will shut out the peripheral and just concentrate on the object in the center field of focus, it's like looking though a straw. So bad guy gets close to you and brandishes a weapon, you side step and draw ( at the same time) and if he's in tunnel vision he'll have to relocate you and this gives you time, and time is what its all about.

So in this type of situation time is king and the more time you have the better, so a fast draw stroke can buy you time, but there are a LOT of other things that can as well. Take the situation that happened to me in the IHOP parking lot, the reason it worked out okay( didn't have to use my gun) for me was I saw it coming and knew what the pre-asult indicators are, as I saw him act them out I knew what he was up to and was able to manage the situation with out having to use my gun and Ultimately that's what were after.
 

shootingbuff

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Same with axe, knife, club etc (usually) you move to the outside of their strong arm for the same reason most shoot from strong side to weak when it is a viable option. That is where the ease, strength and the speed is in conjunction with human nature - you orientate your body to the thrust, chop etc. so from the outside in. Where do you place your plate or bowel of cheerios/? 90 degrees to you or in-line with your belly button? All that stated we can hope especially with stress and tension that the BG will be slower going against the grain even more so then not to include jacking accuracy up as well.
My goal is to not have to worry about it, though if i do I want to have as much stacked in my favor and against the BG as I can. In the IHOP incident being aware could had been key point on the outcome. I just wonder the outcome if caught unaware. Additionally the individual was not trying to do harm, just rob it appears.
Thanks for sharing.
 

jtischauser

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This is exactly why I choose Jimmy's Egg over IHOP.

Seriously though this is good stuff. I have not studied or trained for the defensive side of things at all. I guess I was Hoping my speed and all around badass demeanor would keep BG's away.
 

Wall

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This is exactly why I choose Jimmy's Egg over IHOP.

Seriously though this is good stuff. I have not studied or trained for the defensive side of things at all. I guess I was Hoping my speed and all around badass demeanor would keep BG's away.
Don't forget good looks
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=PoArd48l7eE

Everything we do is defensive in nature, but it relates directly to competition. Here's a new demo video... enjoy!
 

dennishoddy

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I couldn't put the emphasis to move quickly while drawing like the above posts. I just know it needs to be done. Very good guys!
 

Prdator

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Additionally the individual was not trying to do harm, just rob it appears.

To make a long story short he had taken a cigarette from his Rhand to his Lhand and wile doing that had done a "look around" and a Hand to face grooming, both of them are the two primary Pre-assult indicators, he then took his Rhand from his face to behind his back on the belt line, IMHO he was going for a weapon of some type. This is the time that I side stepped and disappeared from his view as he was in Tunnel vision, the cool thing was I could see what was going on and was laughing at him ( not out loud). Had he produced a weapon I would NOT have thought OH he "just wants to rob me" I would have thought he wants to Kill me..... I'd been in class that night with Will Andrews ( http://pistolskills.com/) and was way "tuned up" that night, let's just say that had he produced a weapon it would have ended very poorly for him.... I would not let him get the upper hand and then it be up to HIM if he just wants to rob me or worse.....
 

9x45

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When I first starting running an IDPA club back in March of 98, all the boys and I (USPSA shooters) thought it was really important to use our actual carry/duty guns, run full house issue ammo, IWB holsters and "real world' concealment garments. So here I am with my OEM G19, running 127+P+ duty ammo, IWB FIST K1 holster at 4 oclock and heavy cotton Hawaian shirt. Course got my butt whipped at the 1st state match, thought I had gone to a photographers convention instead of a competition match. Anyway, we kinda of realized that the rules were just different of opposite of USPSA and the intent was secondary, after it's just another shooting game. That didn't stop me from running duty gear though, until I cracked the 2nd slide from the +P+ stuff. Sevigny told me not to expect a long life with those loads, so I backed them off to a 144 floor. Now what is interesting to me, today, is that IDPA still does not allow appendix carry, but I can run that holster in USPSA Limited.
 

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