Competition as I Carry...

Matt1911

Cyrwus Jr.
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First of all, I don't believe this for a minute, Kurt :)




At the Carry Gun match in November we had a stage that required a draw and fire five rounds at 3 feet . Here are the times from that stage. Shooters ranged from a Grand Master to, well, me. Most were from concealment, some were in competition holsters, and ONE was fired THROUGH his coat pocket

1.94
2.56
2.13
2.98
2.33
5.47
2.41
3.18
2.02
3.74
2.21
3.48
2.04
2.66
2.59
2.51
1.87
2.87
1.97
2.61
3.06
2.50
2.57
2.75
6.05

I was at this match... I'm assuming the 6.05 is my time.
 
Joined
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I'm a police officer who shoots competition regularly. As Kurt mentioned the mechanics of the draw are the same unless you're carrying on ankle, ect.
I average around .95 for a controlled pair at 7 yards with my competion gear and 1.10 from my triple retention duty holster. Off duty I carry IWB, generally under a T-shirt and will average 1.40
 

Burk Cornelius

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Edmond/OKC
Back in February we ran a similar drill with draw and fire two at 3 feet. Here are those results. Again, some were from concealment and some were from competition rigs


1.54
1.60
1.86
1.46
1.82
1.83
1.35
2.09
2.33
1.97
1.71
1.85
1.91
2.23
1.67
3.93
1.98
1.31
1.57
2.16
1.37
1.28
1.53
2.50
0.89 <-------not me (or Matt)!
2.01
1.47
1.66
2.61
1.71
1.98
0.74
1.43
2.07
2.17
4.93
2.90
 

benjamin-benjamin

snickerpuss
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Back in February we ran a similar drill with draw and fire two at 3 feet. Here are those results. Again, some were from concealment and some were from competition rigs


1.54
1.60
1.86
1.46
1.82
1.83
1.35
2.09
2.33
1.97
1.71
1.85
1.91
2.23
1.67
3.93
1.98
1.31
1.57
2.16
1.37
1.28
1.53
2.50
0.89 <-------not me (or Matt)!
2.01
1.47
1.66
2.61
1.71
1.98
0.74
1.43
2.07
2.17
4.93
2.90

that .89 was from a guy shooting from low ready, i was the RO for him and i remember... so you can through that time out..
 

Jefpainthorse

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Guthrie OK-Carson City NV
So... Based on Kurt m and a couple of others who are at the top of the food chain and the times from some regular defensive match shooters...
I'd assume that most of us have the technical prowess to hold our own...... As long as we don't sleepwalk during our travels.

I'd think part of the risk is getting so fast we cannot make a "shoot-no shoot" evaluation if the situation came up .
 

lenahorse1

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Cash, Texas
Great topic here, one of the best. Sometimes we shoot a what u carry match here and the Ro had almighty power to say NO! to any pistol entered, like someone entering with a Glock34 with a race holster, no draw needed just move forward, we offered him man other pistols to use but he left mad. All this was explained BEFORE the match. We are having a BUG gun match at night on NY EVE!!. I will not make it due to being in Tennessee and shooting there hopefully. As someone mentioned here that accuracy was the main point out most accurate shooter has 1 leg in a wheelchair, he is a super competetior full of jokes at his expense to boot, we have to push him if there is movement, he always says if I did not win you pushed too slow! and laughed. James was a Distg. Master class bullseye shooter before he lost his leg.
Larry
 

shootingbuff

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Couple of things I would like to point out. At the matches you are ready and know what the targets are going to do which is not going to assault you. Therefore you are ready and not worried about moving off of the center line (youngsters call it X) getting behind cover knowing the angles you can and can not shoot. Bottom line you are aware with no worries.
If surprised or the threat is within 7 yds best bet is bad. First figure reaction vs action. Not for the beep on the start signal, but to immediately I.D a threat that has to be dealt with a second ago and is trying to do you bodily harm. This is why I stated you need to be aware and have your pistol out or at least a hand on it. Then within that 7 yds and reacting you may still find it a very bad day. Distance is your friend and you have to beware. Seven yds is three steps and a lung. Use the timer and check your draw. Set timer for par time and see haw far you can move in the same alloted time frame. Figure reaction after you recognize the threat. Nice times were displayed but folks intent on catching you "off guard" and doing bodily harm have the advantage in speed and mind set. That is why if one is coming at me from a close distance I wont even bother with my pistol. Then we get into retention a whole other subject indeed but if you think a close encounter will not involve contact.... Hey i could be way off base. :confuse:

Sorry for the quick response the dog decided he needed attention. I hope you get the points I was trying to make and those scores were very good.
 

shootingbuff

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Great topic here, one of the best. Sometimes we shoot a what u carry match here and the Ro had almighty power to say NO! to any pistol entered, like someone entering with a Glock34 with a race holster, no draw needed just move forward, we offered him man other pistols to use but he left mad.

What I would do days gone by is allow folks not setup for a specific match to shoot anyway and post their score. The score would not however be towards any match standings. This kept shooters, brought in funds, and showed you were open to new shooters, Just saying.... there are more than one way to skin that cat. I looked at my club as customers. Pissed off customers rarely return but they do tell others of their experience. Thats just me ;-) with my bung hole flapping and nothing more.
 
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Claremore, Oklahoma
Mindset and awareness is always a given... action always beats reaction. Efficient draw, fast accurate shots and transitions, as done in competition, reduce the reactionary gap. Competition re-enforces the shooting aspect. I'm a master class USPSA shooter and am often told in the law enforcement community competion has no baring on "real life" performance. However, I recently attended a force on force (Simunition) class. I placed multiple accurate hits each and every time. In one scenario I placed hits on a 4 man entry team with a reload before being shot. I also did not have the physical reactions to stress as with the others. I credited this to my competition experience.
 

McGuire

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Well troyf said something to me recently that changed my outlook on competition vs combat, when you teach your subconscious mind to run the gun and leave your active conscious to asses and act, you stand a better chance of staying alive. Makes sense to me, train to run the gun cleanly and efficiently, from draw to follow up. Shoot to kill, fight to win.
 

shootingbuff

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Mindset and awareness is always a given... action always beats reaction. Efficient draw, fast accurate shots and transitions, as done in competition, reduce the reactionary gap. Competition re-enforces the shooting aspect. I'm a master class USPSA shooter and am often told in the law enforcement community competion has no baring on "real life" performance. However, I recently attended a force on force (Simunition) class. I placed multiple accurate hits each and every time. In one scenario I placed hits on a 4 man entry team with a reload before being shot. I also did not have the physical reactions to stress as with the others. I credited this to my competition experience.

Great accomplishments all around and thanks for serving the community. I agree with all you stated as well. My thoughts are you are distracted someone comes at you then at some later time you realize the threat and the threat is already that much closer or trying to engage with a firearm and now you react. That is one person. Yes it goes back to awareness, training, and practice. Without awareness it is possible the other two wont have an impact. I do believe if the BG is close you have a good chance of not getting the pistol out - especially if distracted or unaware. Now if someone is just being flashy and is 3yds talking crap sure hate it for them. Different circumstance then one intent on carving your arse for dinner or the because factor.
Stay safe
 

shootingbuff

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At the matches I've attended I usually catch some flak for doing the match the way I EDC...

As in I've got my MTAC & carry my extra mag in my left front pocket... I'm decent on the draw & usually get told "man if you had a competiion holster you'd be realm fast!!!" & the like...

Right now I have a Comp-Tac OWB a friend gave me that I'm planning on using and will eventually get a mag carrier, but what do you think about those that "compete as they'd fight" so-to-speak?!?

Originally I got into IDPA for just that... The stress of the competition, but I admit getting third in my class last time I was at a match kinda chapped my tail a little cause I know I coulda probably taken first if I had more competition appropriate equipment LOL

Just lookin' for a little feedback!!! Thanks!!!

Sorry man. Hope you got the feedback you were looking for. I can get opinionated when bored hope we hadn't hi-jacked your thread. I do like the discussion you generated and how it has evolved.
 

KurtM

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One constant that I run into with students that have already survived these kinds of things, is that there is hardly ever any time to "seek cover, get off the center line, throw up a styalized block, etc" the opening ceremony hardly allows time for that, now IF it continues past that point it DOES get dynamic, and fast, but in the words of a famous gun fighter...while I was seeking cover the basta#d shot me in the a$#, so I turned around and decked him with half a mag. Once it is time to shoot, don't flop drop roll, get to fast accurate shooting, if you can do that while moving great, but where did we learn that???..... well right back to competition.
 

Prdator

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Fast Accurate fire is a Tactic. and a dang good one IMHO... and Competition can really help you in this. Mastering "running the gun" under lots of stress is what we're after and good training ( the more the better) and some competition will help you get there.

For me a "good" shooter should be able to do two Zero down hits at 7yds in under 2sec, This would be from IWB and every day concealment. As others have said, it really depends on the situation you find your self in, one may have plenty of time to draw the other, it might make the difference of life or death. With that said Ill put a lot of effort into getting my draw stroke "perfect" and FAST...

Great topic Kurt!!!!!!!
 

Chambers

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I recently attended a force on force (Simunition) class. I placed multiple accurate hits each and every time. In one scenario I placed hits on a 4 man entry team with a reload before being shot. I also did not have the physical reactions to stress as with the others. I credited this to my competition experience.

You went IPSC on that azz! Would love to see that...

From my perspective, the "competition isn't applicable" argument is only used by those who don't know much about shooting. And sometimes, it's a lame excuse used by people with small egos.

Those people need to get over it.
 

TroyF

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"However, I recently attended a force on force (Simunition) class. I placed multiple accurate hits each and every time. In one scenario I placed hits on a 4 man entry team with a reload before being shot. I also did not have the physical reactions to stress as with the others. I credited this to my competition experience.

Active Shooter, right? I did the same thing, I saw the formation coming down the hall and I thought, "man, that looks like an El prez....let's see how this turns out". Two on each, nailed a reload, and put another two on each before they had time to react.

Fact is, draw time really isn't that important in the real world. It's just fun and easy to quantify, like Kurt said. If you are gonna draw against a gun that is already presented toward you, the best you hope for is a tie. How long does it take to press a trigger? .25 for a slower shooter? And we are talking about great draw times in competition of .80s? Factor in bad guys reaction time to your draw (commonly accepted reaction time in physiological circles is .25) and he still has time to press a shot before you can complete a reactionary draw (under competition settings). So if the bad guy is average in his trigger manipulation, and you are a bad dangerous man in your draw, you still are behind.

Sure there are a lot of awareness issues that come into play during the above scenario. Most of you get that, and it has been eloquently explained by others, so I'm not gonna get into that.

So Gamer vs Samurai? I say be both. Use the former to develop the latter. Use the skills gained in competition to get your weapon manipulation nailed down at a high level in your subconscious. Let the artificial stress of our games, somewhat inoculate you to the stress of the real deal. Get your splits down as low as is possible for you. Get your transitions as fast as possible, because bad guys usually run in predatory packs. Use the skills you develop thru competition be the stone that sharpens your katana. When your hackles stand up, your mind will be free to assess.

Lance once said something to the effect of he would shoot a qualification course with his department and shoot the same scores as everyone else (most often better scores), but doing it in half the time. That's where it's at. He owes that to competition. I get the same thing with me and my guys. There was a time, approximately 5 years ago, where lance and I were on the same performance level. Since that time he devoted waaaaaay more time to developing his skills thru competition, and I took more of a hand to hand route. And today, that cat smokes me on the range.

Playing games is training skills, whether you want to admit it or not. Training combat mindset.....well, that's only accomplished thru pain.
 
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Cant have this train of thought without talking about getting off the "x".

Who Practices draws while they move?
 

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