Best 12ga HD Ammo for the wife / 00 or #4 12 Gauge?

[shootingbuff]

This is funny. We agree on the load, we agree if it is stout enough to stop a threat it is going to over penetrate, we agree on angles/lanes.

Take the meth scenario: a load of anything do you think is going to make adiffernce? OSS is well., check my sig block. If one is determined it is going to take more than one shot. A birdshot which is not what I would use would give most a thought and if not a load of 4B or OOB or whatever is next up. So, even in the meth scenario it is going to take multiple hits.

If one has to protect others they have to get there to protect them. Moving with a SG isn’t the best thing to do in a house or moving at all if there is the possibility of someone in the house. Here comes the plan. yet the plan isn't any good if you never know the BG is in the house. One should do what they can to deter one from picking your house. One must have an early warning system. One especially if there are others that need protecting have to have a plan on how to warn, get to and protect them.

All this macho BS about maybe birdshot is great for levity, but it is not productive to everything that needs to be considered before one may have to pull the trigger. Again the meth scenario if they are tweaked it wont matter what you hit them with. If they are not whacked knowing they have someone with a firearm in a position to defend access into whatever room it is may be the turning point. If not a loud boom should enlighten them even if it is a complete miss or again have a hvr load in the tube.

The thought of moving with a SG through the house especially with one untrained is ludicrous. One needs to hole up and if they have to move they need the SG already staged and a handgun to move with. Again this doesn't mean anything if you never know they are in the house.

Though if one is worried about over penetration (should read errant pellets passing through walls) then fortify the walls or use less lethal load.

Effin A isn't about agreeing with anyone. It is having thought everything through, practiced the plan, getting familar with the firearms and playing what if with each other and testing each person in the house and adapting/modifying the plan and firearms as new information comes in.

Urging someone to use a load that will penetrate walls if there are other family in the house is not my idea of a first choice but by skippy it will be followed with something a bit stouter and their plan better be practiced and work

Now all this for the sake of the OP isn't worth anything if he doesn't have others in the house.

Listen, think, and don't regurgitate.

 

[Spiff]

My handgun's on me right now. It's the same one I carry everywhere. It's so I can get to the AR under the bed. Good luck with your birdshot.

 

[dennishoddy]

I think the main issue in this discussion is if over penetration can harm a family member, or a neighbor if there is a miss or a pass through. Sheet rock and plastic siding doesn't stop many rounds.
For the record, I don't have any neighbors and the kids have long since left home. In MY situation, its magnum firepower and there will only be one story at the end of the day....Mine...if things go according to plan, and sometimes plans don't work.
There are numerous reports out there of over penetration causing fatality's. One comes to mind in Del City when an airman had a ND, that resulted in the death of his neighbor, as the round went through the apartment wall into another.
Another was reported on a national news network when a .45 acp that was fired at a person, missed, went through a window, and killed another person three houses down.
We all know what we want to do and most want the perp DRT, but thats not possible in most cases.
Most home invasions I've read about, have been very quick, and very violent. Your previously thought out plan may very well not work depending on the situation.
Awakening from a deep sleep, your not at the top of your game, and in the length of time it takes the adrenalin to kick in and clarity to start, it could very well be over, and your the loser.
I think most experts advise one to take up a defensive position, call 911, and wait untill the people trained in these duty's arrive.
I totally agree birdshot is not what I would use, but if somebody thinks, and has a plan to use it, so be it. Its their decision.

 

[KeithCross]

Well said Dennis. This is starting to sound like the arguments for/against carrying a .22 handgun as a CCW. Would I do it? Probably not, but I'm not gonna rail on someone who does. I have a friend who used to tease me when I carried a .380. He'd say "If you shoot someone with that and they find out about it - they're gonna be mad!" It was a funny line, but my comeback was always the same, "OK, then let me shoot you with it..."
There is not always one right way. There may be better ways, there may be "perfect scenario" ways and there may even be a best way. Then sometimes the best way changes when you change just a factor or two. Its your call.

 

[dennishoddy]

Ok, we have discussed what we would do with BG coming in the house.
Next situation, the BG has entered, your not prepared, your not in your defensive position that you had in your well thought out plan. He has cut your arm with a knife, or shot that arm with a gun, and you only have use of one arm and its your weak arm. The ony shotgun you have is the pump gun that you read on the internet as being the best SD shotgun of all time.
What is your solution? What would you do different with this scenerio?

 

[shootingbuff]

I think this should go in a section like ask the experts or semi-pros so I wont feel abligied to comment.

Dennis: I have stated it before, a firearm is of no use if it is not accessable. A person needs a plan and work what ifs. If time and distance is not your friend and you have a firearm shoot move and communicate with others in the house - even though they should be reacting.

The problem with this is when and where does it happen? Are you on the crapper, sleeping in bed, fell asleep in your favorite chair, taking a shower etc and where are the BGs when you know they are in the house? Having a clear head knowing where you are, your firearm is and the BGs is the best scenario. How often will that occur?

Simple process be as prepared as possible. If the BGs is very near try and distract to get their reaction time on your side. If you have time and distance know your home and know where the best place would be to cover access to you and for cover.

There is no plan that will cover everything. It may fall on mindset. Hope the BGs are DAs and are more worried about the thought of intimidating the homeowner with no tactical sense or awarness.

Botom line it goes back to deterring the BGs from picking your house, having an early warning system, be it dogs, an alarm, items in front of windows that have to be moved or knocked over, a bell, wind chimes on the door etc. One can have most options taken away if you do not know the home is breeched. Less even if you are asleep or otherwise engauged without a firearm at hand or even no practice/ training on how to employ said firearm if a firearm is available. See sig block.

Things like remote lights, a remote for your alarm system, or hell take an old car alarm that has a remote and run it through a dc adapter and keep it nearby as well as a firearm and a cell.

Back to what to do... Plan, work the plan, revise the plan and practice. Keep a way to communicate a threat to an outside sourse (alarm 911 etc.),and to protect yourself and family near you as within arms reach at all times. The first step in trying to prevent this is not to have your home selected. If selected have a warning system, have a plan and if firearms are part of your plan make sure you practice / have training and know the angles. Just as important make sure family members know what to do.

There is no good outcome. My sister was able to escape through a bathroom window when she was a teenager and attacked at home. I found a guy looking in our windows one night and alerted my dad and brother once in a different town when I was in high school and he was a fast runner lol. I had my apt broken ito overseas(I was not home). Everyone of these events had an impact,

I thought I had it goin on until I had kids. Protecting kids is a lot harder than waking up in attack mode becasue the threat you wake up to may be your kid crawling into bed or asking for a drink of water. Hoping they are were you think they are when they are small, to trying to come to your aid and getting in the way to missing and now where did that shot go or running up at you. Yep life is easy when you are the only one in the house or don't think things through.

Plan, practice, revise and repeat the entire process.

The best plans fall to crap when crap happens. Practice the plan/s and play what ifs. Every family member must know what to do and the signs/signals to call 911, huncker down or flee.

A n d here is the kicker. Can you be passive and the BGs get the valuables if that is what they are after and leave? Myself I hope I never have that thought so I don't have to second guess anything.

I hope the soothing color helps. lol

 

[shootingbuff]

My handgun's on me right now. It's the same one I carry everywhere. It's so I can get to the AR under the bed. Good luck with your birdshot.

Lol

Never said I would use bird shot. I said I would use LR 4 buck and know the angles, but my views a SG is for taking a defensive posture.

I did allude it might be an alternative followed up with a heavier load if over penetration was a concern while defending access.

Having your sidearm with you is a good start to being prepared.

Peace out,

 

[shootingbuff]

Sorry Dennis and crew, I only read the couple of lines that showed up on the home page.

If the BG/s is at me he/they must be stopped. Doesn't matter how, but must be now. A SG somewhere isn't going to do me any good.

Getting back to one armed and a pump: It will be slower but easy enough to manage. if one needs to chamber a round the cool movie / semi-pro way of holding onto the forarm and jacking the round in while holding the SG vertical works. You can use th edge (bottom or side of something to rack the slide. You can hold it between your knees and rack it, you can shoulderit it and place tube against something to hold it in place and rack the slide - the hip the same way etc. One should know the operation of the SG and how to load it. All one has to do is stabilize the firearm and do it. Why not the muzzle? May have to, but we can still try and think safety. Practice makes better.

My thoughts are practice. Maybe not a lot but it should be worked into your shooting. Pistol, SG, rifle, whatever and however. those that only practice free style at static targets while standing still are behind the power curve.

 

[DoctorJJ]

My handguns are on me right now too. I carry dualing 460 S&W's in drop leg's with a 454 Casull on my ankle as a backup. These are the same ones I carry everywhere. It's so I can get to the Ma Deuce under my bed. Anyone who chooses to use less firepower than me is a kitty cat. 'Cause I. Am. The baddest of them all!!!

 

[shootingbuff]

Hey Keith,

I sure am embarrased if that is how you viewed my post. I was trying to give an option with the why of it. My most sincere apoligies. If you noticed I did spend very little time on bird shot verus being prepared and not having your house selected lol

Sorry man,

 

[shootingbuff]

My handguns are on me right now too. I carry dualing 460 S&W's in drop leg's with a 454 Casull on my ankle as a backup. These are the same ones I carry everywhere. It's so I can get to the Ma Deuce under my bed. Anyone who chooses to use less firepower than me is a kitty cat. 'Cause I. Am. The baddest of them all!!!

Doc,
I feel you are at least telling a half truth. That Ma' Duece now would be a pain to get out from under the bed in a hurry so I am going to call you on that.

 

[DoctorJJ]

Doc,
I feel you are at least telling a half truth. That Ma' Duece now would be a pain to get out from under the bed in a hurry so I am going to call you on that.

I handle a Ma Deuce like you handle a Red Rider.
Ha!
Just trying to bring some levity to this thread. Seemed a little tense a few posts ago.

 

[shootingbuff]

Naw, lol discussion is where it is at from stress management to education. Keeping an open mind is the trick and not falling back to name calling. I don't think anyone, self included stepped past sharring their views etc.

You did in fact injected humor into this thread and for that I gave you a like FWIW.

Just one question are those matching 460 dueling pistols matched to include the serial numbers?

 

[shootingbuff]

I'm curious as to why you say this; not at all to argue with you, I'm here to gather knowledge. What weapon would you use inside the house, or better yet...what weapon would your wife use inside the house and why? I would use my pistol, a S&W M&P in 9mm. I also know why I chose the shotgun for my wife. I just wanna see other's POV on this.

Any long arm in close areas where there are places for one to hide and corners with out much room to pie that allows the bbl to protrude in front of you is a liability. One not trained and or practiced makes it worse. It is easier to be disarmed and have the long arm taken out of play from a maneuver stand point to being pushed off line. For the untrained it is also slow to engage with and subsequent follow up shots.

There is also having to use both hands vs one. One might be wanting to guide a family member to using a light, a cell phone, or even carry a child, to defending against a grab etc. maybe open, lock doors, dial a phone whatever. One loses a lot of control when taking the second hand off of a long arm.

 

[KeithCross]

Jerry, do not be embarrassed about your input into this conversation! I believe I took your posts in the way you meant them. My point was that one small thing you said about birdshot was what was taken and run with by others, while the bulk of your side of things was "prepare, plan and practice", which you said repeatedly. Also, the advice about finding shooting angles is golden!

As far as why I chose the shotgun for my wife, the reasoning is this: My wife does not have the confidence level that I do with a pistol. I'm not a Grand Master, but I believe that I could hit what I need to based upon what practicing and comptetion I have done. My wife has shot a shotgun many times and feels fairly comfortable with one. I do understand your concerns, and they are something we will have to overcome, but at this point I would rather she be armed and prepared to some degree rather than not use a gun at all because she "doesn't like it".The best gun for the job isn't worth owning if it won't be used. We also do have several preventive measures going for us. We've got a couple of dogs that go nuts anytime anything besides a car goes by. We also have an alarm system to alert us and the only way a BG could get in would be to break glass. Double paned glass. its possible, but it would be noisy.

 

[shootingbuff]

Keith ole boy,

I have been told all my life I am not funny. Now you can see why. I tried to make that a funny. I am not nor was I embarrased - much anyway

Please note I didn't say a SG was a bad choice overall. (I hope I only stated not for me.) Just if one would be walking about which I hope if bad things happen your wife wont have to do. If your wife shoots the SG and actualy is comforatable that is great though it doesn't help with walking around the house with it if a BG is already in the house. I do not know the lay of your house and it might be fairly open and you might practice with your wife on movement through the house if she has to move from a "safe" room /area.

In other words you have your reasons why you are preparing the way you are and if they meet the common sense test for you that is what matters.

Please note that a door can be strong but the frame is usally weak. If you are serious about the home protection you and your wife take turns from the entry points making it to different locations in the house. Next take turns to re-acting and then making it it to your firearms / safe area, gathering the kids etc. If one breeches the door it is only a couple of seconds to bang if that. That my friend is why you want to try to assist the BG in selecting a different house other than yours.

Thanks for your post.

 

[dennishoddy]

My point in bringing up the scenerio where the home had been breached, and the first shot missed, or was ineffective, and the home owner had a limb incapacitated, was to raise awareness that there always has to be a plan b, and possibly a plan c.
Its also to try and overcome the instance on the interwebz that a pump action shotgun is the best for SD.
Yes, its possible to rack one single armed. Some can do it fairly quickly, but not quick enough to stop the charge from a home invader or even outside the home.
A good self loader takes a major part of a potential malfunction out of the picture. The main malfunction is the shooter. Under stress, a short stroke will result in a jam or empty chamber.
That would be the loudest click ever heard in their life.
In a prior thread Kurt Miller agreed that they have more malfunctions in his training classes with pump guns than an auto. He didn't elaborate if it was mechanical or human malfunctions.

I've been caught flat footed a couple of times at the isolated farm. Working in the barn on a tractor, I had my .45 in OC as I always do, but was so concentrated on the task at hand, that I didn't see the guy that came 50' into the barn before speaking up right behind me. Fortunatly it was an insurance agent looking for the neighbor and saw the open barn with my truck outside.
It could have gone the other way.

 

[shootingbuff]

Sorry if I screwed the pooch.
As stated the BGs have to be stopped now and a SG or any firarm elseware wont do. If one has time to get to the pump then anything more than taking the safety off is going to start taking time. FWIW in my limited experinces I have seen more pumps have failures as well. From short stroking to case extraction. That stated short stroking is a training issue I feel for the most part.
It doesn't help though having to work a pump one handed especially if it is your weak side.

A very good point. I was focused on getting the gun into play after my initial comment; though if I may refer back to it lol. Note the comment about a couple of seconds to bang as well and play what if's. Again a very good point to bring up.

 

[KeithCross]

Jerry,
LOL! I blame it on the interwebs! That's the problem with typing something rather than converfsing face 2 face - you lose a lot of the detail that tells me "This guy's being funny!" No worries man! I've enjoyed all the banter from both sides and it has given me much to think about concerning home defense!

A funny story...
I actually picked up the shotgun Wednesday (along with some 00 buck) and have been familiarizing myself with it and all that jazz. I finally got the wife to handle it some tonight and get used to how it operates. We then took a walk around the house discussing all the various shooting lanes/angles (thanks to Jerry). While telling her how she really doesn't walk to stalk through the house unless she feels it absolutely necessary, she says "I know what to do." She took the gun and began to PIE THE CORNER around the doorway into the bathroom! Just as I was beginning to be impressed and she was about halfway around she jumps full open into the doorway, shotgun at her hip and yells "Hi-yah!"

As I facepalmed myself I heard her say "I say that on a cop movie..."

I'm in trouble....

 

[dennishoddy]

Sorry if I screwed the pooch.

You didn't. Its a discussion where different points of view can help educate.
I know I've learned from this discussion.