Best 12ga HD Ammo for the wife / 00 or #4 12 Gauge?

shootingbuff · May 24, 2012

A couple of thoughts or three.

Only way to be sure the kids are not in the line-of-fire is to angle your fire i.e from low to high and no where the kids are (that will be best guess so again angle your fire up into the ceiling
Fed FC or Hornady eqv is tight. I would rather use something that will spread if only double of FC. Reason slightly better chance of hitting vitals / more vitals. Less chance of over penetration from the rounds following each other.
I would opt for LR 4 Buck. Less chance of over penetration and at most home distance I would think plenty stout to reach vitals.
Maybe even a lite 6 shot if she is only protecting a doorway followed by the # 4 reduced recoil

dennishoddy · May 24, 2012

I did a very complete review on using bird shot for SD on another forum. Point blank range is going to be fatal in most cases.
I'm talking 1 yd or less.
At 5-7 yds the pellets did not penetrate some $3 industrial safety glasses. (I know it spreads very little at that range) It would shred the face, but probably not be fatal, but would incapacitate the person?
It barely penetrated a heavy winter coat, which would not result in taking the bad person down.
We use the glasses I shot as a good example of how effective eye protection can be at our range.

A couple of hundred pheasant down the road, shot with #4 bird shot will result in some pass throughs and some that don't at 15-20 yd ranges.

All of this being said, my opinion is that one has to use the 4 buck or larger. I don't have kids at home, so the order of the day is big bore, whack em down loads.

DoctorJJ · May 24, 2012

Dennis,
What gun, barrel length and choke was that with?

I've done some fairly extensive "testing" on live animals that would completely contradict your testing of birdshot.

shootingbuff · May 24, 2012

dennishoddy said:
I did a very complete review on using bird shot for SD on another forum. Point blank range is going to be fatal in most cases.
I'm talking 1 yd or less.
At 5-7 yds the pellets did not penetrate some $3 industrial safety glasses. (I know it spreads very little at that range) It would shred the face, but probably not be fatal, but would incapacitate the person?
It barely penetrated a heavy winter coat, which would not result in taking the bad person down.
We use the glasses I shot as a good example of how effective eye protection can be at our range.

A couple of hundred pheasant down the road, shot with #4 bird shot will result in some pass throughs and some that don't at 15-20 yd ranges.

All of this being said, my opinion is that one has to use the 4 buck or larger. I don't have kids at home, so the order of the day is big bore, whack em down loads.

Agree on the less than lethal in many cases. Thing with safety glasses is they are hard - flesh isn't. I was going to put 4s but I have read test # 4 does pretty darn well on sheet-rock and sixes surprised me with how well they did. Having been a younger I have shoot saplings into with everything from 9s down from 3-5 yds. I figure if that wood was flesh it would do better/more. All that note I said followed by #4 and if protecting a doorway. I kept going back to the kids for my reasoning.

Main thing is know the angles and the lay of the house. Loved my dad's house it had cement walls a few inches thick. Also try to deter the BG from wanting to pick your house. Lights, dog, even fake alarm signs/stickers prickly bushes/plants under the windows etc.

dennishoddy · May 24, 2012

It was a review of the Taurus Judge, but used a full length H&R .410 full choke with the same loads as a constant.
The .410 has the same velocity as a 12 ga in a full length barrel, so the test should be valid as far as penetration.
The Pheasant loads were 12 ga max loads at 1400 fps across a chrony.

I'll not resurrect that test, but generate another using 20/12 guage factory loads with pics.

KeithCross · May 25, 2012

VERY interesting slug VS. gel videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HuVkXLreWE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=5oDG2i6rwjU&NR=1

KeithCross · May 25, 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbFLY9OIqPA&feature=relmfu

shootingbuff · May 25, 2012

Your typical BG is going to be hvr than a 30-50 lb block of jell. The block flipping up looks impressive but a person wont. No need with a well placed 1 inch hole front and rear. The 12 bore isn't a BG slayer. One still have to hit what they are aiming at and have it drive deep enough to vitals (as Dennis was alluding to) and then add company.

Sucks when you have to start thinking of your backstop and misses. Learn and think angles and hope you don't have to fire.

shootingbuff · May 25, 2012

This guy does a lot of ammo tests and is the best individual conducting test. Interesting results. Check you carry ammo.

dennishoddy · May 25, 2012

I did a real impromptu test today.
Gun, sweet 16, modified choke
Round, fiocchi 1300fps #5 shot
Distance, 8 paces(my hallway length)
Target, old pair of jeans to simulate winter clothing with 4 layers of denim, and a 2 liter bottle of water.

Shot the target. Most pellets penetrated the denim, those that did, most entered the water bottle, but did not exit the other side. Some did not enter.
Taking the jeans off the bottle, there were several pellets laying on the ground, or fell out of the pants.
On a human torso, behind the winter clothing, there are ribs and meat before the pellets can reach a vital area. If the shootee is over weight, there is a layer of fat as well. In retrospect I should have used two bottles to get close to the size of lungs.
This is why I've always questioned the lethality of bird shot as a SD round.
Many years ago, a friend was hit by a load of #6 shot in the face and upper torso while quail hunting at 10 yds. He wore glasses that saved the eyes, and medical personnel removed most of the pellets other than a couple in his lungs. They opted to leave them there, and he carries them to this day.
Just my opinion, but to stop a BG in their tracks, you must do one of two things, shoot with something large enough to cause major damage to the central nervous system, or shoot them to cause brain death.
Those of us that deer hunt, and I'm sure some that have been in a gunfight can testify that a person/deer shot in the lungs can stay in the fight long enough to run aways or return fire.
View attachment 2590

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KeithCross · May 25, 2012

Sweet test idea! I'd like to recreate that with 00 buck, #4 buck and slugs just to see what happens.

I agree about the lethality of birdshot. I've met a man who had been the cheif of police in a small town in ND. He was all scarred up on his face and neck due to taking a load of birdshot to the face...and there are many similar stories to be found.

dennishoddy · May 25, 2012

Yeah, our past Vice President had a little issue with a guy on a quail hunt.

That being said, I'd rather hunt quail with Dick Cheney vs drink and drive with Ted Kennedy, may he rest in hell.

shootingbuff · May 26, 2012

dennishoddy said:
This is why I've always questioned the lethality of bird shot as a SD round.

Never questioned the lethality of birdshot. Just trying to put things in a hope I don't have a loved one behind that wall. Followed with something heavier and then only if protecting a doorway which would buy one time hopefully until the LEOs arrived or they fled. If not then you follow up with something heavier.

I wasn't looking necessarily for DRT. I was looking at protection/defense/ not having much energy if the pellets made it through a wall.

AFA DRT have to get to the brain housing/stem. Second best is CNS.

Again I keep going back to the low penetration requirement. Again Know the house and the angles which I feel is the best bet regardless of what is used.

Thanks for sharing your results and totally agree about Dick and Ted.

dennishoddy · May 26, 2012

I agree with you. A load of birdshot is certainly going to make one step back and reassess their decision about illegally entering your home.

poopgiggle · May 26, 2012

If the situation is at a point where you can dick around with birdshot, it's not dire enough for you to be shooting at them in the first place.

shootingbuff · May 26, 2012

Nope - disagree. there can be many reasons one would want ot break in. Resistance is not one of them. Having and demostrating resistance when one is worried about family members in an ajacent room with something heavier to follow it up as in a second or two could be better than having to live with harming a family memeber.

The choice is the homeowners be it an informed choice or not. Like I said work the angles. I would opt for inside the house and worried about OP is LR 4 buck. Myself I think a shotgun is senseless in a house unless holed up defending the entrance to where you are regardless of the load. A BG unless seriously wanting to get at you wont want to cross that opening or enter it even with birdshot.

KeithCross · May 26, 2012

Myself I think a shotgun is senseless in a house unless holed up defending the entrance to where you are regardless of the load.

I'm curious as to why you say this; not at all to argue with you, I'm here to gather knowledge. What weapon would you use inside the house, or better yet...what weapon would your wife use inside the house and why? I would use my pistol, a S&W M&P in 9mm. I also know why I chose the shotgun for my wife. I just wanna see other's POV on this.

Spiff · May 26, 2012

I think I've stayed out of this thread as long as I possibly can handle. Birdshot is for little birds. Birdshot is not even for big birds. Birdshot is terrible for stopping people. Stacking rounds in the tube, especially with birdshot, is a bad idea. You may only get one chance to put a dirtbag facedown before he or she harms you or your family. Do you really want to waste that by pissing them off?

There is a large assumption in this thread that home invaders act logically. What if your home invader is tweaking on meth or PCP? Do you think they'll have a sudden moment of clarity when they realize someone just gave them a chestful of #7.5s, or do you think they'll have a new motivation to finish what they started?

#4 buck to 0 buck out of a reliable shotgun are all excellent stoppers. If it will stop a person, it will go through a wall. There is no defensive round that will reliably stop a person that will not go through a wall. Know your lanes of fire, know where your family is, have a plan, have a light, and don't use birdshot.

drmitchgibson · May 26, 2012

Spiff said:
I think I've stayed out of this thread as long as I possibly can handle. Birdshot is for little birds. Birdshot is not even for big birds. Birdshot is terrible for stopping people. Stacking rounds in the tube, especially with birdshot, is a bad idea. You may only get one chance to put a dirtbag facedown before he or she harms you or your family. Do you really want to waste that by pissing them off?

There is a large assumption in this thread that home invaders act logically. What if your home invader is tweaking on meth or PCP? Do you think they'll have a sudden moment of clarity when they realize someone just gave them a chestful of #7.5s, or do you think they'll have a new motivation to finish what they started?

#4 buck to 0 buck out of a reliable shotgun are all excellent stoppers. If it will stop a person, it will go through a wall. There is no defensive round that will reliably stop a person that will not go through a wall. Know your lanes of fire, know where your family is, have a plan, have a light, and don't use birdshot.

Goddamn right.