Tactical vs Competition

Burk Cornelius · Jan 25, 2012

ArGyLe64 said:
What does "ATAS" mean? I'm new.

As Tactical As Shit

McGuire · Jan 25, 2012

wow, this post blew up...I really see some good stuff here, I agree with a lot of it, and yes I dont see going to the range in a decked out plate carrier as a practical thing, unless that what you wear to work and your job requires that stuff. Sort of a train as you fight mindset. Kurt said it very well when he said the gamers drive development, I agree, but the application of the tools and skills, in my opinion need to be pointed at something, to lead to something, and more than just a few 10ths of a sec lead on the score sheet. For me that point is running my weapons cleanly and effieciently, to take some of the gamer and some of the tactical and mash it all into one. A fighters mindset if you will. I want to know that when **** hits the fan and the wolves are at the doorstep that I can pick up my weapon and use it to great effect. I guess I just dont have the "gaming" gene, I love to compete, but not for the sake of the competition itself. I just feel there should be some type of shooting that allows those of us who wish to hone those skills neglected in gaming, combined with the speed and accuracy so inate to the competition community, and test that type of shooting. who knows, Im not sure where Im going with this, its just something I have been thinking about a good bit lately.

McGuire · Jan 25, 2012

Maybe I played too much call of duty...

Mitch Rapp · Jan 25, 2012

See, I have the gaming gene, and hate getting beat. My budget of both time and money are what dictate how I compete. My goals are the exact same as yours I think. To just be as good as possible with the tools at hand, just in case.

TroyF · Jan 25, 2012

Kevin S. said:
So it comes down more to your own ideas than it does those of the people around you. I had one guy make fun of my stuff when I was at a match, he is an instructor at USSA and I hope has changed his attitude. He had more money in his AR than I have in all my guns combined. Oh well, I kicked his but so lots of good it did him.

Not me, btw. But i would get a chuckle if you PM'd me and dropped his name.
My thing is shoot what you have. Be yourself. I get more frustration out of someone being trying to Act more than they are.

I guess i use the term Timmy different than most. To me, Timmy is the guy who tells you constantly how ATAS he is, and wants to show it thru his gear. But he cant back it up.

KurtM is tactical. He knows his ****. He can shoot. He understands tactics. He understands that some game stuff will get you dead, and he underestands that some tactical stuff is just plain stupid. But what makes Kurt really tactical is he would never ever say the things about himself that I just said about him.

Timmy is NOT the guy who comes to a match with a pump HD shotgun and a light on his pistol. That guy is a guy who is coming to shoot a match with the gear he has. Now if he does that in a full set of Crye Precision MultiCams, says he picked his pistol because he heard that is what Delta is using to "slay Skinnys", and is an accountant who has a mohawk but has never seen the charging elephant.........Different story.

KurtM · Jan 25, 2012

Well when the Wolves are at the door, throw out some hamburger and then you can shoot them while they are eating....thats the gamer way.

Couple of quick quotes:

"Tactics are like assholes everyone has them" Kyle Lamb.

" I listen to gamers because they know how to shoot, then I jam it into my world and am better for it". Mike Panone

" you can't do that, in the real world that would get you killed" Lt. Dave Abrams Denver SWAT (after his SWAT team was charged by "the bad guy" in sims training and "the bad guy" scored 5 head shots before succoming to return fire, oh and "the bad guy" did two reloads during the charge)

"It doesn't matter in the least as long as you are aware and have the right mind set and are armed, these things happen so fast you don't have time to do that stuff" Col. Jeff Cooper in response to a students question about seeking cover.

"you need to get out off the real world a little more often" Kurt Miller in reply to a "timmy" telling me why what I was doing wouldn't work in the real world

Jefpainthorse · Jan 25, 2012

where does Sherrif Jim Wilson fit into all this....LOL

I get sorta tickled at both camps...unless they are bona fide military or paramiltary folks. We sorta forget sometimes... a practiced shooter with a '94 carbine and a 1911 can be pretty ATAS when the need arises

KurtM · Jan 25, 2012

Jim Wilson fits right into the mind set and willing catagory, and you don't need anything othere than....and I hate to quote the Duck Commander....BUT.....BANG BANG BANG once your there

Wormydog1724 · Jan 25, 2012

I dunno. Being ATAS feels pretty good sometimes.

That should be a quote on a patch on my MultiCam hat.

Matt1911 · Jan 25, 2012

Wormydog1724 said:
My first 3 gun I wore a drop leg holster.

I'll admit it. I did too.

technetium-99m · Jan 25, 2012

McGuire said:
I just feel there should be some type of shooting that allows those of us who wish to hone those skills neglected in gaming, combined with the speed and accuracy so inate to the competition community, and test that type of shooting. who knows, Im not sure where Im going with this, its just something I have been thinking about a good bit lately.

What skills in particular do you feel current practical shooting neglects that are necessary in real world fights? Serious question here. I'll never be the first one through the door on a SWAT team nor will I deal with a large group of pissed off people trying do do me harm (as I type that I realize I really hope it never happens). But I do feel current games do as good a job as possible of teaching you how to run your gun without actually having someone shooting back at you. Would it be blind stages, kind of a react to what you see, or something else that forces you to make decisions? Without injecting actual fight into the situation I really don't see what else you can do.

Regarding everyones favorite, the Timmy. This is not the guy bringing the 18.5" pump and standard M4gery to a match. It's the guy with the hydration pack on and patch showing his blood type who realizes he can't get rifle magazines out of his pouches under any stress reliably because he has never tried to do such a thing. Or can't load his shotgun because his sidesaddle randomly drops ammo everytime the gun goes off, once again because he has never tried it.

Now I'm under no delusion that I have any idea what it's like to be the guy first through the door etc. I'm sure there are training exercises abound that teaches them how to do that job effectively. Kurt, Troy, and Lance have that training, and at times have been the guy in harms way, yet they have all told me they use competition as a way to build up their subconscious ability to run their guns. I think that speaks volumes.

TroyF · Jan 25, 2012

For those new to the forum, you must just understand that Wormy has been getting his chain jerked about being ATAS for a long time now, and he loves it. Its like his badge of honor. Much like JP and his love of the AK. All in good fun.

Jefpainthorse · Jan 25, 2012

TroyF said:
For those new to the forum, you must just understand that Wormy has been getting his chain jerked about being ATAS for a long time now, and he loves it. Its like his badge of honor. Much like JP and his love of the AK. All in good fun.

If you guys are like Wormy when you grow up... well, you could have done worse....JP on the other hand....

I have to hand it to JP...first time he shot Heartland he was white as a sheet. I've seen guys with better color first time up a 130 foot transmission tower. I hear he's coming along as a 3 gunner very nicely.

Jeremy... I want your AR...'nuff said.

TroyF · Jan 25, 2012

I actually have a document that I wrote entitled "Will Competing Get Me Killed?". I have been hesitant to post it in the blogs, but I may just go ahead and do so.

And the answer to that question is "hell no".

Burk Cornelius · Jan 25, 2012

This thread is tactical......and practical

TroyF · Jan 25, 2012

Ive got the Sims guns, if you guys wanna pony up the money for some Sims ammo.....we can put on one heck of a match.....

Mitch Rapp · Jan 25, 2012

Side note about the "tactical" guys... If your plate carrier is XXXL, you aint tactical.....

argyle64 · Jan 25, 2012

TroyF said:
Ive got the Sims guns, if you guys wanna pony up the money for some Sims ammo.....we can put on one heck of a match.....

No thanks. The last time I was involved with Sims guns I came out looking like I had actually been shot...and it was my own blood.

Lance Jensen · Jan 25, 2012

KurtM said:
Well the reader's digest version is that the tacticle crowd makes fun of gammers because they wear funny shirts and gear that is not practicle in the everyday combat setting ( more on that in a moment) and they "train" to do things that will get a person killed, like reloading in plane veiw of targets, not seeking cover, etc. The tacticle guys train a lot more on moving to cover, retaining magazines, etc,and are not particularly concerned with speed of shooting as this equates to poor shooting in their experience

Gammers laugh at Tacticle guys because they tend to hang all sorts of stuff off their rifles, carry 3 flash-lights have plate carriers and "combat vests" that they wear to matches, while the gammers know all that stuff gets in the way of fast accurate shooting, and gammers tend to shoot boat loads more and are therefore much more skilled at weapons manipulation under stress, and can hit stuff very accurately and fast.

The two different groups tend to dismiss the experience of the other due to missguided beliefs about what the other group thinks and does. It is very hard to be taken seriously by either camp if you already have a "name" in one of those camps. For instance a well now "gammer" here does lots of training for Military and L.E. to include 5th group S.F. and L.A. SWAT and yet here he is a gammer, period! Not many folks have made the cross over, with Bennie Cooley being about the only one I know of that is accepted by both groups.

Gear that isn't practicle in "everyday combat settings". Red dot sights fell into this catagory untill around 2000. A gun with more than one optic fell into this catagory untill 2005. Free foat handguards were impractivle untill 2009. I have seen Marines with Shell caddies that use them while deployed. recently I have seen Glocks with a Trijicon Dot sight on top of them being tested by S.F. and Delta. Gammers drive developement while being made fun of by the very guys who will latter embrace the changes driven by competition and then say things like well it has to be good because the army adapted it.

Anway that is the way I see it from both sides Kurt