Shotgun Magazine Capacity for 3 Gun

[jtischauser]

Please take my poll!

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=152509&pid=1709120&st=0&#entry1709120

 

[Redline]

Done

 

[Burk Cornelius]

Need to modify grammar

How many rounds be allowed in shotgun magazine tube be allowed to hold BEFORE the buzzer?
How many rounds be allowed in shotgun magazine tube be allowed to hold AFTER the buzzer?

Looks like you got in a hurry

 

[shootingbuff]

I have mag tube envy so I smacked those long tubes down
Actually I think tactical should fall in line with practical. That stated I have two that holds 10 lol

 

[technetium-99m]

Where's 12 in the tube, one on the lifter, and two held in left hand at the buzzer?

Methinks you left out some options!



Kidding, I voted.

 

[shootingbuff]

I think more would had read this post except they may had thought JT said "pole"
I thinks it is a skinny jeans thing.

 

[jtischauser]

Where's 12 in the tube, one on the lifter, and two held in left hand at the buzzer?

Methinks you left out some options!



Kidding, I voted.

You jest but this weekend we were not only allowed shells in hand on some stages we were also allowed To have them in the loading port ready to be loaded.

We also learned a new start command...gimme a nod when ready, nod, beep! No standby just beep. No matter how you try to prepare yourself for that you still arent ready unless you start before the beep.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

You jest but this weekend we were not only allowed shells in hand on some stages we were also allowed To have them in the loading port ready to be loaded.

We also learned a new start command...gimme a nod when ready, nod, beep! No standby just beep. No matter how you try to prepare yourself for that you still arent ready unless you start before the beep.

yeah i was shocked at how every stage how different rules!!! also never thought i would meet someone who refused to say standby..

 

[jtischauser]

Midwest has been weird like that every year I have shot it. The RO's are all great guys and super fair but it seems that there isn't a local USPSA club because that is how we all learn the proper start and finish commands.

 

[KurtM]

I find it funny that in the Rules thread Jesse was all over "the R.O. has the final say" period and as long as it worked in his favor he was good with that, and now that it didn't help, he doesn't like it. As was pointed out CMMG WAS NOT a USPSA match, so why should they use the "propper comands?", and since we are there, what is a propper comand? We know what USPSA does, but they aren't the only boat in the sea. How about IDPA, IPSC ? They differ. Maybe you should practice reacting to the beep not the droning in the background. most place overseas assume you know what the course of fire is and understand it by stepping into the box...you will never hear "does the shooter understand the course of fire"....oh and standby means nothing over there either. Make ready, Shooter is ready, BEEEEEP. That is what I would expect at High Plains as we are running IPSC rules.

As for tubes, I think that an empty chamber start shold only be 8 rounds TOTAL in the gun. Why should Mr. New Guy be penalised for having a Stock Fn type shotgun or a Rmmington Comp master that only hold 8 in the tube? for loaded start 8 in the tube and one in the chamber....after that go crazy....Just like IPSC does right now and OKCGC 3-Gun ALWAYS HAS DONE, so read them rules and expect the unexpected!

 

[jtischauser]

I find it funny that in the Rules thread Jesse was all over "the R.O. has the final say" period and as long as it worked in his favor he was good with that, and now that it didn't help, he doesn't like it. As was pointed out CMMG WAS NOT a USPSA match, so why should they use the "propper comands?", and since we are there, what is a propper comand? We know what USPSA does, but they aren't the only boat in the sea. How about IDPA, IPSC ? They differ. Maybe you should practice reacting to the beep not the droning in the background. most place overseas assume you know what the course of fire is and understand it by stepping into the box...you will never hear "does the shooter understand the course of fire"....oh and standby means nothing over there either. Make ready, Shooter is ready, BEEEEEP. That is what I would expect at High Plains as we are running IPSC rules.

As for tubes, I think that an empty chamber start shold only be 8 rounds TOTAL in the gun. Why should Mr. New Guy be penalised for having a Stock Fn type shotgun or a Rmmington Comp master that only hold 8 in the tube? for loaded start 8 in the tube and one in the chamber....after that go crazy....Just like IPSC does right now and OKCGC 3-Gun ALWAYS HAS DONE, so read them rules and expect the unexpected!

If you look at my stage times nothing worked in my favor!

On a side note I probably shouldn't RO High Plains or USSA as I will likely use different range commands, scoring and loaded him rules for each shooter. Its outlaw right? The RO is the man!

 

[KurtM]

The only thing that worked in my favor is that I can still stand and shoot hung-over!

 

[KurtM]

BTW High Plains is not an "outlaw match". It is run as a IPSC match, with all applicable IPSC rules.

 

[jtischauser]

You better brush up on your range commands before Hungary Kurt. "Standby" means the same in IPSC as it does in USPSA. See page 24 or 30 of the entire document.

http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf

"Load And Make Ready" (or "Make Ready" for starts with an unloaded firearm). â€" This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.
8.3.1.1 Once the appropriate command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the "Start Signal" without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer. Violation will result in a warning for the first offense and may result in the application of Rule 10.6.1 for a subsequent offense in the same match.
8.3.2 "Are You Ready?" â€" The lack of any negative response from the competitor indicates that he fully understands the requirements of the course of fire and is ready to proceed. If the competitor is not ready at this command, he must state "Not Ready". When the competitor is ready he should assume the required start position to indicate his readiness to the Range Officer.
8.3.3 "Standby" â€" This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds (also see Rule 10.2.6).
8.3.4 "Start Signal" â€" The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from "Are You Ready?"

 

[MiniUzi]

I voted.. interesting subject.. it seems you hit a hornets nest over there... A few comments from a 3-gun noobie but a long time competitor in another discipline... Thisdrama is normal. Factions, in-fighting and "no! you are doing it wrong" crap pops up where ever there is competition. The whole reason most sports and variations of sports exist is because somebody thought they could do it better... yay.. thus is life.

The bottom line is that rules, sports, and decisions all rely on one thing... competitors... To paraphrase " he who has the best rules wins". The competitors will go where the "fun" is . When learning the rules is more trouble than it's worth people will go elsewhere.. Everybody is different and it seems that some folks think that breaking down shooting classifications further is somehow not a good thing. With the amount of shooters in some of these divisions why not make a 8+1 class or a 10+ class or whatever the subset needs to be?

The line for me is when the people in charge forget that shooting sports are a test of SKILL, not a battle of technology or money. It should be and apples to apples comparison after the smoke clears to determine who the winner is. I enjoyed watching the 3GN shoot offs when the guns were supplied by sponsors versus the shooters using their own gear. The only advantage a shooter could have was in training, experience, and the mental focus they could summon at that moment in time. That's a true competition and and undeniable achievement of skill over skill. That's the win I would revel in getting and a loss I could accept with a smile.

 

[jtischauser]

I voted.. interesting subject.. it seems you hit a hornets nest over there... A few comments from a 3-gun noobie but a long time competitor in another discipline... Thisdrama is normal. Factions, in-fighting and "no! you are doing it wrong" crap pops up where ever there is competition. The whole reason most sports and variations of sports exist is because somebody thought they could do it better... yay.. thus is life.

The bottom line is that rules, sports, and decisions all rely on one thing... competitors... To paraphrase " he who has the best rules wins". The competitors will go where the "fun" is . When learning the rules is more trouble than it's worth people will go elsewhere.. Everybody is different and it seems that some folks think that breaking down shooting classifications further is somehow not a good thing. With the amount of shooters in some of these divisions why not make a 8+1 class or a 10+ class or whatever the subset needs to be?

The line for me is when the people in charge forget that shooting sports are a test of SKILL, not a battle of technology or money. It should be and apples to apples comparison after the smoke clears to determine who the winner is. I enjoyed watching the 3GN shoot offs when the guns were supplied by sponsors versus the shooters using their own gear. The only advantage a shooter could have was in training, experience, and the mental focus they could summon at that moment in time. That's a true competition and and undeniable achievement of skill over skill. That's the win I would revel in getting and a loss I could accept with a smile.

I agree with everything until you got to the part about the 3GN shoot offs being better using the sponsors guns. When you haveTeam FNH and Team Stag Arms shooting the sponsors guns daily and guys like Horner that have every gun available that will help him win it's way better when they use their own stuff. Take the Texas match as an example. My teammate Kalani laker crushed people with his own kit. Then Garcia had a malfunction in his pistol and got ousted instead of a reshoot despite having a commanding lead going into the pistol portion of the shoot off. It was the most exciting shoot off I have ever watched!

 

[MiniUzi]

I agree with everything until you got to the part about the 3GN shoot offs being better using the sponsors guns. When you haveTeam FNH and Team Stag Arms shooting the sponsors guns daily and guys like Horner that have every gun available that will help him win it's way better when they use their own stuff. Take the Texas match as an example. My teammate Kalani laker crushed people with his own kit. Then Garcia had a malfunction in his pistol and got ousted instead of a reshoot despite having a commanding lead going into the pistol portion of the shoot off. It was the most exciting shoot off I have ever watched!

I can't argue with your experience but I do have to question the notion that somehow the fundamentals of shooting change based on the firearm you are shooting. In my experience a good shot is a good shot, period. I can't agree that because you are a Stag shooter you would have an advantage over a top tier shooter if you both had 3G's. Team AMU has a training advantage since their job is to get paid to do what the rest of have to pay for to have fun. Seems like a dream job to me, but the fundamentals still remain the same.

Is there video of Garcia's run you mentioned online that I can watch?

 

[jtischauser]

The Stag 3G is the closest thing to the gun the competitors compete with in the match that they used in the shoot offs. It is probably a wash for everyone since it has a kick ass trigger in it. The hard guns to shoot are the FNX and SR9 pistols and the scar. Their triggers are not even remotely close to a bad Glock trigger or so I'm told as I've never been in a shoot off where I had to shoot the pistol and rifle. I did get to shoot an SLP in the team deal at ozark last year and the shotgun is a wash. If a guy like Kalani is used to a 2 lb Custom STI trigger and his opponent has been running both his 2lb STI trigger and his stock FNX trigger in practice the guy that's familiar with the stock trigger has a distinct advantage IMHO. Fundamentals are the same but what your used to changes quick. You can slap the piss put of an AR Gold, JP or STI trigger and still have good results. That's not the case with a 5-8 lb factory trigger. Switching on that slow trigger prep and press takes a lot of conscious thought and slapping a light tigger doesn't. I could be way wrong because like I said I ain't never been in a shoot off.

 

[jtischauser]

With all that said I would use crappy stock triggers all day long if it means more sponsor's and guns on the prize table. Heck the shoot off is just for us onlookers amusement anyways isn't it?

I won a nice FNP pistol for 50th place at my first major match. I think every up and coming shooter ought to experience that awesome rewarding feeling!

 

[KurtM]

I can guarenty you that Jesse is right. Having been in 5 shoot offs in the 3-gun nation series and doing them in general for over 20 years that the subtle differences in guns DOES make for poorer performance if you aren't use to the gun. The timeing is a bit different it doesn't feel the same in your hand, the sights are different, etc. Yes the fundamentals are the same, and in general even with gear I'm not familier with, I can ususally hold my own, but a gun I have over 75,000 rounds through will alway out perform a gun I have only shot 12 times, especially if the trigger is WAY different and the sights are way different...like most of the FNH products that I have only used in their shoot-offs. The FNH shooters use that stuff everyday and I have only held them for a total of 40 rounds. We aren't tlaking about nice slow fire, we arte talking about cleaning a plate rack in 2.23 seconds and the next guy with the unfamilier gun doing it in 2.35 and losing. Both are astounding runs but the guy who has used it alot will almost always kick the butt of the guy who hasn't given equal skill. KurtM