Production Optics Link to Poll

[Lance Jensen]

let them into production, Ill eat them up

Looks like you already have fatty.. lol

 

[technetium-99m]

Here is GT's manifesto regarding production optics.

We have 2 groups who say production optics is a good idea.

One group says it's the future of handguns and USPSA needs to get on the forefront of technology. I disagree, I think optics on handguns make little sense, they are another thing to break and I've yet to see an optic that can be slide mounted and survive thousands of rounds without losing zero or just plain falling apart. Dot's on handguns make some shots slightly easier (small plates at 25+ yards etc.) and are a wash with iron sights for most everything else. For defensive use, in darkness you are still going to need a flashlight to see what you are planning on shooting which for me means night sites work just fine. They also add bulk which can get caught on stuff and they are harder to conceal if you carry.

The second group just want to shoot guns with dots and not bother with loading specialized ammo or buying a proper open gun. This group is going to be sorely disappointed when a good production shooter beats them soundly. They are also going to be sad when they realize they are into a production optics gun for pretty darn close to a base limited 2011. A purpose built PO gun will be right up there in cost with an Edge from STI.

Right now we have 6 divisions, 3 are healthy and well populated, 3 have minimal participation. Production optics at best would be another also ran group, at worst it would subdivide a very healthy division.

 

[OUshooter]

If you have a dot.... have fun in Open, or don't.

 

[Airic]

Here is GT's manifesto regarding production optics.

We have 2 groups who say production optics is a good idea.

One group says it's the future of handguns and USPSA needs to get on the forefront of technology. I disagree, I think optics on handguns make little sense, they are another thing to break and I've yet to see an optic that can be slide mounted and survive thousands of rounds without losing zero or just plain falling apart. Dot's on handguns make some shots slightly easier (small plates at 25+ yards etc.) and are a wash with iron sights for most everything else. For defensive use, in darkness you are still going to need a flashlight to see what you are planning on shooting which for me means night sites work just fine. They also add bulk which can get caught on stuff and they are harder to conceal if you carry.

The second group just want to shoot guns with dots and not bother with loading specialized ammo or buying a proper open gun. This group is going to be sorely disappointed when a good production shooter beats them soundly. They are also going to be sad when they realize they are into a production optics gun for pretty darn close to a base limited 2011. A purpose built PO gun will be right up there in cost with an Edge from STI.

Right now we have 6 divisions, 3 are healthy and well populated, 3 have minimal participation. Production optics at best would be another also ran group, at worst it would subdivide a very healthy division.

 

[jtischauser]

Sorry GT you make some great points but I gotta respectfully disagree with you. I've shot my G17 w/RMR enough to know it's a lot of fun and it really does need a home In practical competitive shooting.

Here is GT's manifesto regarding production optics.

We have 2 groups who say production optics is a good idea.

One group says it's the future of handguns and USPSA needs to get on the forefront of technology. I disagree, I think optics on handguns make little sense, they are another thing to break and I've yet to see an optic that can be slide mounted and survive thousands of rounds without losing zero or just plain falling apart. Dot's on handguns make some shots slightly easier (small plates at 25+ yards etc.) and are a wash with iron sights for most everything else. For defensive use, in darkness you are still going to need a flashlight to see what you are planning on shooting which for me means night sites work just fine. They also add bulk which can get caught on stuff and they are harder to conceal if you carry.

.

When dots on mounts first started they didn't hold zero or withstand beatings either. And then those pesky engineers changed them thru innovations because they saw the advantages of them being faster than iron sights. What we've got here is further innovation of that red dot saga. The micro dots like the RMR, delta point and that vortex thing is are several steps better then their predecessors. I have used my Glock/RMR combo enough to know that it's faster on every shot and it's easier for a new shooter than learning to line up iron sights. As for carry I agree bigger ain't better but the average gun owner buys guns cause they are cool and red dots on their new M&P is cool beans. You do bring up a good point about lights on guns though. There should be a division that allows lights on guns. They are on all of my guns that are used for shooting things that go bump in the night. You don't get much more practical than a laser/light combo IMHO.

Here is GT's manifesto regarding production optics.

We have 2 groups who say production optics is a good idea.

The second group just want to shoot guns with dots and not bother with loading specialized ammo or buying a proper open gun. This group is going to be sorely disappointed when a good production shooter beats them soundly. They are also going to be sad when they realize they are into a production optics gun for pretty darn close to a base limited 2011. A purpose built PO gun will be right up there in cost with an Edge from STI.

I think you are missing the point of this division or at least what I see as the point of this division with this statement. You're right most guys that own these production optics guns for carry use or cause their cool don't want anything thing to do with loading .38 super or 9mm major. Heck the majority of USPSA members don't either. Open guns are weird in the average gun owners eyes. Heck the same can be says for an STI edge when it comes to the average gun owner. Most gun guys don't even know what an STI is until they start shooting USPSA. I know I didn't. Production optics isn't trying to be a cheap version of open Division. Think of it like Tac irons versus tac optics in 3-gun. The point of this discussion is finding a spot for this new breed of production optics pistols to compete fairly in. As it sits now if you allowed optics in Production it wouldn't be fair to the iron sight guys and the same goes for shooting a CORE in open. The Core will be at a disadvantage.

Here is GT's manifesto regarding production optics.

Right now we have 6 divisions, 3 are healthy and well populated, 3 have minimal participation. Production optics at best would be another also ran group, at worst it would subdivide a very healthy division.

We all know why L10 is small. It's so I have a hider division to go win titles at double tap. The reason SS, and Revo are small is because the gun designs are lacking ammo capacity making them slower and less fun to shoot fast. I think a Production Optics (PO) division would do well but yes it will steal shooters from other divisions. Several of the older guys that shoot open do so because their vision is bad. I bet that we see a bunch of those older eyes finding their way into PO rather than Open simply due to the cost and complexity of Open divisions guns and gear. We will also have some Production guys jump into PO because it will be a faster and and subsequently more fun division than Prouction.

I think there is a lot of merit to everyone's comments about ammo capacity and reloads. Let's face it nobody likes reloading 5 times a stage. It's slow and slow ain't fun or good for your well being in a practical applicatiom on the streets. I bet if you poll the guns that are popular in Production you find that most hold 15+ rounds. Sure there are newbs shooting .45 XD's that hold whatever it is 12 or 13. But the veteran production shooter has a CZ, Glock 17/34, M&P 9, or XD9. Those guns all hold 17 or so. The reason they have the 10rd limit is so that most guns that anybody might show up at their first match with can compete on a level playing field. We need a division that allows any gun to compete fairly ammo capacity wise.

But with PO I bet a 15rd mag capacity would be more popular and I know it would be more fun. It's faster which in my experience always equates to more fun. Sure there will be some tactical Timmy's bringing their G26 w/RMR carry gun to compete but that won't be the norm. I say load the mags up a little and let everyone have some more fun.

 

[mike cyrwus]

jt makes some good points

Ill highlight them

.
You're right most guys that own these production optics guns for carry use or cause their cool don't want anything thing to do with loading .38 super or 9mm major. Heck the majority of USPSA members don't either. Open guns are weird in the average gun owners eyes.


Production optics isn't trying to be a cheap version of open Division. Think of it like Tac irons versus tac optics in 3-gun. The point of this discussion is finding a spot for this new breed of production optics pistols to compete fairly in. As it sits now if you allowed optics in Production it wouldn't be fair to the iron sight guys and the same goes for shooting a CORE in open. The Core will be at a disadvantage.

Several of the older guys that shoot open do so because their vision is bad. I bet that we see a bunch of those older eyes finding their way into PO rather than Open simply due to the cost and complexity of Open divisions guns and gear. We will also have some Production guys jump into PO because it will be a faster and and subsequently more fun division than Prouction.

But with PO I bet a 15rd mag capacity would be more popular and I know it would be more fun. It's faster which in my experience always equates to more fun.

 

[mike cyrwus]

almost has me convinced. The old guy vision thing is the best argument. I think there are undiscovered shooters that dont even know they cant see the front sight.
Its a much bigger issue than anyone knows.

 

[jtischauser]

almost has me convinced. The old guy vision thing is the best argument. I think there are undiscovered shooters that dont even know they cant see the front sight.
Its a much bigger issue than anyone knows.

You and I are getting closer and closer every day.

 

[Tuflehundon]

I actually have a few friend that run RMR's on there Glocks and won't shoot USPSA because they would be at a huge disadvantage and feel overwelmed when they look at other open guns.

 

[technetium-99m]

Okay, so you have the RMR which can live on top of a gun long enough to be useful. Why not shoot that Glock 17, with big mags in open? You are not that far off the scoring of the rest of the open field, I promise. Can someone win nationals not shooting major, probably not, but it would be a lot of fun at club matches where the majority of participants come to play.

As to the older eyes argument, where does it end? Do we have limited optics, revolver optics, production optics, SS optics?

I admit the CORE doesn't have a good place in USPSA, neither does the Sig 220, or any polymer gun in 45, or every Browning Hi power. All great guns that don't fit well in any particular division. I don't agree with making divisions to suit guns.

As to the competitive argument. I see guys running Glock's in limited against 2011's and doing just fine. I've seen a lot of guys on my squads shooting minor in limited for some reason and beating some guys shooting major. Why is open this holy grail where there is no acceptable entry other than a full house gun?

Finally, do you truly believe there is a contingent of dot sighted guns out there with owners that aren't bringing them to matches just because they don't want to shoot in open?

Honestly, the 15 round limit in production would do a lot more to bring in shooters with less potential collateral damage than production optics.

 

[technetium-99m]

I actually have a few friend that run RMR's on there Glocks and won't shoot USPSA because they would be at a huge disadvantage and feel overwelmed when they look at other open guns.

That's the same argument I've heard from just about every friend I've had, just with a different focus for why they feel that way.

I'd be willing to bet that if someone was willing to loan them a Prod/Lim/Open rig they still wouldn't come shoot.

 

[mike cyrwus]

Okay, so you have the RMR which can live on top of a gun long enough to be useful. Why not shoot that Glock 17, with big mags in open? You are not that far off the scoring of the rest of the open field, I promise. Can someone win nationals not shooting major, probably not, but it would be a lot of fun at club matches where the majority of participants come to play. cant run factory ammo; its not a simple division

As to the older eyes argument, where does it end? Do we have limited optics, revolver optics, production optics, SS optics? end? where does it begin? They have one division, open. I for one, am tired of seeing old guys stagger to each position with a 4# open gun and go, "bloww, bloww" at each target and go back to knitting on transitions

I admit the CORE doesn't have a good place in USPSA, neither does the Sig 220, or any polymer gun in 45, or every Browning Hi power. All great guns that don't fit well in any particular division. I don't agree with making divisions to suit guns. doesnt suit guns, suits a simple gun w/optic setup

As to the competitive argument. I see guys running Glock's in limited against 2011's and doing just fine. I've seen a lot of guys on my squads shooting minor in limited for some reason and beating some guys shooting major. Why is open this holy grail where there is no acceptable entry other than a full house gun? I think shooters are better off picking guns that picking divisions. The former is more psycologically satisfying; and we know how importent the mental aspect of shooting is.

Finally, do you truly believe there is a contingent of dot sighted guns out there with owners that aren't bringing them to matches just because they don't want to shoot in open? no, but there are tons of bad sighted guys going away from iron sighted guns into an insanely competive and technical division, open, when they would be better served with a simpler division to meet their needs.

Honestly, the 15 round limit in production would do a lot more to bring in shooters with less potential collateral damage than production optics. Show me one hi-cap magazine for a production legal pistol that cant be downloaded to 10rds.


It wouldnt be a limited 10 division, ill stake my rep on that. also, think of the potential sponsorship and support by optic companies? Maybe competition shooters can once again lead the way into new gear and techniques.

 

[mike cyrwus]

just sit back, GT, clear your head, and think of the positives of such a division. Your responses are more of a defense of prod divion and the way things are , rather than the potential good. give yourself until sunday. mull it over

 

[Airic]

They could always just give it a probationary test run. Didn't they do that with SS a couple years ago?

If it works and people participate, the division stands. If not then it goes.

 

[Wall]

Dammit, now I want to shoot PO

 

[technetium-99m]

just sit back, GT, clear your head, and think of the positives of such a division. Your responses are more of a defense of prod divion and the way things are , rather than the potential good. give yourself until sunday. mull it over

I hear you Mike, I really do. I'm seeing the logistical nightmare of this division and trying to get people to see what's going to happen with it. I also don't think dividing what in a lot of areas is the most popular division with a deep talent pool, and then splintering it is a good idea.

I vote well all meet somewhere and discuss this over beer though.

Dammit, now I want to shoot PO

I knew there was something wrong with you.

 

[poopgiggle]

I think there is so much crap going on at HQ right now with Jay Corn and COI-gate that a new division isn't happening anytime soon.

 

[jtischauser]

Who is Jay Corn?

 

[poopgiggle]

Who is Jay Corn?

Area 6 director

 

[jtischauser]

What did he do? Shoot Production with a Red Dot??? :sarcastichand: