Make your own rules BS!

[Cohiba]

The more "normal" it seems...the more used to things people become, the easier it is for things to get passsed into law.
When You were kids, if some cop asked your grandfather to search his car what would have happened? Now its everyday.
When people become acoustomed to doing A-B-C its easier to make it a requirment, then D gets added...the E and F and G. Till you have no rights but what you are allowed.
I know that some of you "think" you are covering your azz, but in reality you are setting yourself up to look like a dealer to the ATF.
Tracking fiorearms sales and keeping bills of sales, recipts and conducting your own psudo background checks?
Sounds like a dealer to me. An unlicened dealer.
The chief target numero Uno for ATF right now.
The "gunshow loophole" is being closed by you guys. What needs to happen is that we stand up for whats always been our rights. To own and trade and sale our property without the intervention of government.
A handshake and the exchange.

 

[11B3XCIB]

Look at our Sister State: North Carolina. For private handgun sales, they require a CWP to be shown, OR pistol purchase permit (given by Sheriff/CLEO, one permit for one pistol). So many gun owners in NC are OK with some form of Universal Background Checks because they already have to submit to them for half of their private sales, and they view it as a good way to make sure the guns are being sold legitimately. While I don't like the idea of a gun being sold to a felon or someone, I am not willing to erode my liberties because something bad "might happen". It's already illegal for felons, drug users, or people with severe mental illness to possess or purchase guns, there's no reason to add another law or contribute to making a new law easier to pass by doing the paperwork when it's not a requirement. I really don't see how a hand-jammed bill of sale will protect you in the event a gun you have sold is used illegally.

 

[dreamerofdreams]

I'll stand up for liberty. The liberty of private sellers to sell to whomever they like for whatever price they like, with whatever qualifications they like, and the government keeping its nose out of it.

I mean really, maybe we should have a law prohibiting people from asking for CWPs or IDs when conducting a private sale! Wouldn't that be better! :roll:

 

[11B3XCIB]

I'll stand up for liberty. The liberty of private sellers to sell to whomever they like for whatever price they like, with whatever qualifications they like, and the government keeping its nose out of it.

I mean really, maybe we should have a law prohibiting people from asking for CWPs or IDs when conducting a private sale! Wouldn't that be better! :roll:

I get your point, but the sarcasm is a little tiresome. The purpose of the laws being written the way they are is so people don't have to jump through hoops like bills of sale and background checks, yet people feel the need to require them. Honestly, a home made bill of sale really isn't going to do any more in court than a hand written log of all guns you've sold. And you're right, it's up to the seller to require whatever they want and it's up to the buyer not to buy it. If you're so uncomfortable or untrusting of an individual to require a bill of sale, you shouldn't be selling to them in the first place.

I don't want the private documentation thing to become so common place that it becomes an easy law to pass REQUIRING it.

 

[dreamerofdreams]

I'll stand up for liberty. The liberty of private sellers to sell to whomever they like for whatever price they like, with whatever qualifications they like, and the government keeping its nose out of it.

I mean really, maybe we should have a law prohibiting people from asking for CWPs or IDs when conducting a private sale! Wouldn't that be better! :roll:

I get your point, but the sarcasm is a little tiresome. The purpose of the laws being written the way they are is so people don't have to jump through hoops like bills of sale and background checks, yet people feel the need to require them. Honestly, a home made bill of sale really isn't going to do any more in court than a hand written log of all guns you've sold. And you're right, it's up to the seller to require whatever they want and it's up to the buyer not to buy it. If you're so uncomfortable or untrusting of an individual to require a bill of sale, you shouldn't be selling to them in the first place.

I don't want the private documentation thing to become so common place that it becomes an easy law to pass REQUIRING it.

Sorry, with the frequency this comes up I have a hard time avoiding the sarcasm.

Some people cannot differentiate between the government requiring something and an individual requiring something. They are two different things. Further, you are conflating an individual requiring something with likelihood that a law would be passed requiring such. I do not see correlation, much less causation.

I could decide that I'm not selling a gun to anyone who isn't wearing a red hat. That's not going to lead to a law being passed requiring people to wear red hats to buy a gun.

If I'm uncomfortable selling to someone, I won't sell to them. Period. If I don't know someone, sometimes a CWP or Mil ID makes me comfortable. No skin off of anyone's back, and I'll fight tooth and nail against registration or universal background checks. What, exactly, is the problem here?

 

[11B3XCIB]

I was more referring to the members that require extensive bills-of-sale for a private transaction. I was Googling the same issue, and even read on other forums that SC residents were requiring a photocopy of an SCDL or SC CWP for a private sale.

A flash of a SCDL to prove SC residency, cash, and a handshake is fine with me.

 

[armaborealis]

The more "normal" it seems...the more used to things people become, the easier it is for things to get passsed into law.
When You were kids, if some cop asked your grandfather to search his car what would have happened? Now its everyday.
When people become acoustomed to doing A-B-C its easier to make it a requirment, then D gets added...the E and F and G. Till you have no rights but what you are allowed.
I know that some of you "think" you are covering your azz, but in reality you are setting yourself up to look like a dealer to the ATF.
Tracking fiorearms sales and keeping bills of sales, recipts and conducting your own psudo background checks?
Sounds like a dealer to me. An unlicened dealer.
The chief target numero Uno for ATF right now.
The "gunshow loophole" is being closed by you guys. What needs to happen is that we stand up for whats always been our rights. To own and trade and sale our property without the intervention of government.
A handshake and the exchange.

I would like to see glocks sold in a blister pack at Sam's Club in the end game. Heck I'd like to see SAWs at Lowe's. For that to be viable we need to end the war on drugs so that we can incarcerate career violent offenders, and we need some sort of outpatient or inpatient commitment reform to ensure that paranoid schizophrenics take their medication. In the early 1960s, you could mail order an M1 carbine to your door, no questions asked. In the early 1960s, we also institutionalized paranoid schizophrenics.

I would much prefer to put the tiny percentage of individuals who are the problem into cages or on medication than to treat everyone like they're in a low grade psych ward. Regrettably, antigun leftists love to let lunatics self-medicate with alcohol out on the streets, and hard-on-crime folks on the political right have a hard on for throwing folks who smoke weed into prison ensuring that there's no space for actual violent offenders. So in the imperfect world we live in, the solution I find comfortable is the best I can come up with to act responsibly in our mobile, anonymous society.

I am 100% opposed to any sort of government requirement for "universal background checks," universal registration (whether backdoor through a 4473 or otherwise). I think the NFA is arbitrary unconstitutional bullshit. North Carolina's pistol permits are complete bullshit, derelicts from an evil era of overt racism intended to disarm minorities. I am going to get back to writing representatives, calling Colorado state senators to help our brothers and sisters there beat back some draconian bullshit, and sending faxes... You know, doing something productive rather than arguing with fellow travelers over relatively minor points of 2A purity.

Let me know if you are not a member of NRA or SAF; I will be happy to sign you up and pay for your annual fee. Likewise, if you want me to slap your name on a fax to your senators, PM me and I will do so. Let's pitch back in to the real fight.

 

[bigfutz]

What's wrong with selling guns to convicted felons (assuming obviously they are not still being incarcerated)? If they were a danger to society, wouldn't they still be in prison? If they have been released, then they have obviously been rehabilitated and have paid their debt. So, why should their Constitiutional rights be infringed upon?

 

[dreamerofdreams]

What's wrong with selling guns to convicted felons (assuming obviously they are not still being incarcerated)? If they were a danger to society, wouldn't they still be in prison? If they have been released, then they have obviously been rehabilitated and have paid their debt. So, why should their Constitiutional rights be infringed upon?

While I completely agree with this in theory, we know it's not the case right now. I don't think most felonies should be prohibiting, heck I don't think most felonies should be felonies.

 

[Cohiba]

Let me know if you are not a member of NRA or SAF; I will be happy to sign you up and pay for your annual fee. Likewise, if you want me to slap your name on a fax to your senators, PM me and I will do so. Let's pitch back in to the real fight.

No thank you. I am opposed to any organization that tells its members its building up a treasury for fighting an enemy, then when the enemy comes they clain that they need to wait till the real threat arrives.
Why has the NRA not blanketed the airwaves with adds pointing out the truth about black rifles in simple terms that people can understand? Why have they not blanketed cable TV with ads pointing out the lies and falshoods the left purports?
They dont reperesent my views.
You want me to belive that writting senators does ANYTHING?
You obviously are not aware of the laws with regards to campaign finance.
You and I are nothing to politicians. They dance with who pays the cheque and right now interest groups and corporations are who puts them in office.
Let me ask you something...
I began shooting pistols at 12. I actually bought my first one at 17 (shhhhh) and my first legal pistol I picked up off layaway on my 21st birthday. I carried a concealed pistol regularly from 1989 till yesterday. From 1994-1998 I carried a pistol as a TO weapon in the USMC as an MP. From 1998-2002 I carried a pistol as a duty weapon as a county level LEO and a concealed weapon at all times in between. I was the primary pistol instructor for the Provost Marshalls offfice in OKI and actually trained JSG (Japanese Security Guards) while stationed with the 3RD MAR DIV. While in service I never qualified below expert, As a LEO i Never qualified below 249/250. I have attended multiple schools both public and private in unarmed self defence, ground fighting and tactics. I have never been charge with ANY felony, I am a Notary Public, and have an Honorable Discharge from the USMC with 4.9-4.9 pros and cons.
With that said... why should I have to sit in a class room for 8 hours and listen to a man less qualified than me tell me things I know better than him... then file a bunch of paperwork and send it to the capitol to be signed by someone so that I can have the PERMISSION to exercise a RIGHT?
Becasue its "the law"?
Do you feel any less safe knowing that I may be sitting in a restraunt a few tables from you with a 1911, cocked and locked on my hip WITHOUT A PERMIT ?
Listen to me carefully...
A good shoot is a good shoot, a bad shoot a bad shoot.
A good shoot wont be bad becasue I dont have a permit any more than a bad shoots going to be deemed good becasue the shooter HAD a permit.
The shooting will be justified on its own merit and the fact that a permit may or may not be issued to the shooter is not an issue that a decent lawyer would even allow to be admitted.
Got that so far?
OK good.
Secondly. I'm not going to use deadly force unless there is absolutly no other choice what-so-ever. And I am not some gunshop commando preaching what i'm gonna do if this or that happens. I have seen those orange sparks and I have no new holes to show for it. I am only going to pull my weapon in the MOST GRAVE EXTREME.
AND when and IF I do...do you think I would give achit about a petty azzed carry charge, after the fact?
Think about it...I just pulled a weapon and shot someone to save my life or the life of another...I could care less if I catcha fine for not having a permit.

in fact, once my attorney presents my background and training, would you as a juror convict the guy who just saved someones life? becasue he didnt have a piece of paper with some politicans signature on it?

 

[fordnut]

Sir: First off...I want to thank you for your service.

Now....I want to clearify something you just said :

"I carried a concealed pistol regularly from 1989 till yesterday."

Does this mean that you just went and followed us sheep that have a CWP and got yours.....

Or does it mean you quit carrying??? I just wanted to make sure that after all the talk about how we don't need CWP's that you went and got one...or, you just deceided it was not worth carrying ileagley...

Steve

 

[Tigerstripe]

meaning no disrespect, but there are other ways to see the situation .

when i got my permit the point was made not to carry reloads. if you use one and it does go to a jury you will be vilified as using exploding or badder ammo than anyone can get to espicially kill.

not from me, i have had 2 stepsons in iraq and 1 again in Afgan now. my brother retired with about 30 years a deputy. i commend yours and many others service. but the same wont be said about your service during a trial. """"you are a trained killer""""they will profess. as when i shot IPSC. they will say i was specially trained with an advantage. doesnt matter why just that i have an advantage against a poor criminal. "they" will come up with all kinds of chit and its legal to introduce a lie in court, "in their opinion".

it was a big talking point "in the beginning" when i got my permit. why should we pay for the privelidge we are guaranteed?
i had been carrying in the car since 21 and never questioned. i just decieded it was worth it to carry on the hip, legally. im not going to go rouge anytime soon, that was years ago and im still law abiding.

just a not pretty pic i was shown to understand what "I" was getting into. i decieded to pay the price and have never had problems with LEO or anyone really.

 

[TheSwampFox]

To the OP: You have a big issue with people making their own rules when it comes to privately selling their own property but you have no problem making up your own rules when it comes to concealed carry? Good luck with that.

If and WHEN you are arrested for unlawfully carrying a handgun the jury will not hear how you saved a school bus full of kids from 30 armed ninjas. The facts of the case will be did you or did not have a concealed weapon without a permission slip (to use your term). Enjoy your time in jail. The gun you had on you will be destroyed and you can say goodbye to ever legally owning another firearm.

 

[Tigerstripe]

in case that was directed at me, i could have been wrong for 20 years or so but in my investigations i found it has been legal to carry a gun in a car in SC long before i was born.

DNR "rules" state that it is legal to carry in a car going to or from hunting or fishing. that would cover lots of my time in the car with a gun back then.

 

[TheSwampFox]

in case that was directed at me, i could have been wrong for 20 years or so but in my investigations i found it has been legal to carry a gun in a car in SC long before i was born.

DNR "rules" state that it is legal to carry in a car going to or from hunting or fishing. that would cover lots of my time in the car with a gun back then.

No that was toward cohiba who said he conceal carries without a CWP and doesn't care if he gets charged with it because he thinks a jury wont convict him.

 

[Cohiba]

The reason I said "yesterday" was cause that was the last time I had carried.


NO. I am not afraid a jury WONT convict me... I am willing to pay the fine/ do the time because I have a strong held belief in whats a right and whats a priviledge.
They are called convictions. Its when men choose to do whats right regardless of whats legal.

So for some of you the only thing that dictates right and wrong is whats deemed legal?

You already need a permit to protest... You guys apparently agree with a permit to bear arms...OK...So when the state issues an edict saying you need a permit to go to church, you gonna get one?

Lets narrow it down.
What right DONT you feel the need to ask permission to exercise?

And just so theres no confusion who this is directed towards...
SWAMPFOX,

how you saved a school bus full of kids from 30 armed ninjas...

Why do you feel the need to be condesending towards me? My actions dont have any effect on you, so why should you be so offended that you speak of me in such a manner?
Perhaps you see me as one of those mid-fifties fat men walking around in a photo-vest with a glock and 3 spare mags on my hip? neck knife and concealed weapons badge type?
I can assure you. I began having a pistol on me when I lived in South Florida I know how to hide a pistol and I am well aware of the grounds under which a LEO can search me. Perhaps your assumption that #1 carry without a permit is a felony and I would "lose my rights to ever own a gun legally" is not the only thing you are misinformed about.
You see A LEO doesnt have the right to just walk up and search my person. So unless I USE a gun how exactly am I going to be charged? Furthermore, and probably more importantly, IF I use a gun, do you think I will care if I am charged? If I use a gun I am going to be saving my life...doesnt that seem like a pretty large consideration compared to a $1000 fine?
You see, Im not the guy you expect me to be. You already have this preconcieved notion in your head based on who you are, who you know and who you saw when you attended your pistol class.
As well the things they told you in the class dont apply to me. I carry in restraunts that serve alcohol. I have no requirment to tell a LEO I have a permit (because I dont).
So all the rules that apply to you, dont apply to me. Because YOU learned better than me in your class.
While, I on the other hand, know more about the places and times and situations in which a person is not required to have a permit to carry. I can work within those places and times and situations so that 90% of the time I have a pistol on me I am within the state laws requirments.

SECTION 16-23-20. Unlawful carrying of handgun
A person violating the provisions of Section 16-23-20 is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.

 

[Avtomat-Acolyte]

 

[TheSwampFox]

Cohiba, I'm sorry for the condescending remark. I'm a smartass and sometimes it can get the best of me.

I started out this thread agreeing with you that it is silly for private sellers to require a CWP for a sale. I agree because I too don't have a CWP for my own personal reasons. I'd love to see a constitutional carry bill get passed and then we can all carry without permission from big brother. What I don't condone is breaking the law, even ones I don't agree with or believe in. I do not have $1000 and I'm sure my boss will not hold my job for a year while I'm jail just because I believe strongly in something. Its your choice to go out and break the law but you probably do not want to post that on a public online forum.

As well the things they told you in the class dont apply to me. I carry in restraunts that serve alcohol. I have no requirment to tell a LEO I have a permit (because I dont).
So all the rules that apply to you, dont apply to me. Because YOU learned better than me in your class.

The fact you don't have a CWP means you cannot carry ANYWHERE not that the rules of CWP don't apply to you.

 

[Cohiba]

I'd love to see a constitutional carry bill get passed...

It already did.
It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Definition of BEAR
transitive verb
b: to be equipped or furnished with (something)

In Heller the majority rejected the view that the term "to bear arms" implies only the military use of arms.
"...Thus, the most natural reading of ?keep Arms? in the Second Amendment is to ?have weapons.? At the time of the founding, as now, to ?bear? meant to ?carry.?

So ANY action outside of exercising a right is an infingment. the CCP is not " in support of" the right, but it is , in and of itself, a burden on the right and an infringment of the right.
By example, if you were required to get a permit to publicly practice your religion, would you?
If the right to bear arms applies only to me having (in my home) an arm, but not to carry it on my person ...does not the phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." mean only that you can exercise that right in your home?

What I don't condone is breaking the law, even ones I don't agree with or believe in.

Thomas Jefferson
"to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions (is) a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy....If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

Are we to the point in which we can only be told by the judicial branch what is right and what is wrong? or more to the point what is RIGHT and what is priviledge?

 

[John Canuck]

You are absolutely right. If you get arrested and are willing to take it to the Supreme Court, I've got a couple of bucks set aside to help out.

Don't forget about the Constitution Carry sub-committee meetings.