Make your own rules BS!

Cohiba · Feb 27, 2013

I am sick of seeing the same crap creeping up on the for sale boards.
I have been doing online deals for over 12 years.
I have sold and bought rifles from Guys like Chuck Hawks, John Barness and John Dodd.
But this recent rash of guys requiring Concealed permits to buy thier rifle?
WTF?
I am a former Marine, MP, SCLEO...I CHOOSE NOT TO HAVE A CARRY PERMIT!
Regardless of why, its my choice.
So you want to penalize me for that?
Look...The laws of SC are plain. private transactions require NO Paperwork, NO background checks, No nuthin. they are private.
If you want to be a dealer, open a shop...
MY DEALER doeant even require a CCP for a rifle sale.
You guys who are asking for bills of sale and concealed permits ect ect ect are doing the libs job for them.
They have you scared and running and personlly I think you would be the first ones to give in to them.
In fact, i bet that a lot of Germans ratted out their Jewish buddies for reasons similar.
Plain and simple.
If I have something for sale and its a private transfer, I am not asking for anything. If you meet me and look like your a kid, i may want to see a ID showing your age.
But short of that there is no requirment by state law and I am under no obligation to require you to provide anything other than my price.
And to be quite honest I am really unclear what in the heck a bill of sale or someone showing you a CCP acomplishes anyway.
Other than making you the seller look like a quasi dealer.
thats right.
YOU are the one who is going to look like some under the table gun dealer because of the checks and the bills of sale.
read...

The Gun Control Act of 1968 provides that persons ?engaged in the business? of dealing in firearms must be licensed.3 Although Congress did not originally define the term ?engaged in the business,? it did so in 1986 as part of the McClure-Volkmer Act (also known as the ?Firearms Owners? Protection Act?). That Act defined the term ?engaged in the business,? as applied to a firearms dealer, as ?a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.?

The fact that you are requiring paperwork, documentation and ID only will further the Feds case.

And trust me... the unlicened sellers are who they are going after.

A June 2000 ATF report found that unlicensed sellers were involved in about a fifth of the trafficking investigations and associated with nearly 23,000 diverted guns.7 A national survey of firearm ownership conducted in 1994 determined that 60 percent of all firearm sales in the U.S. involved federally licensed dealers, while the remaining 40 percent of firearms were acquired from unlicensed sellers.8

I am not a dealer. I dont purport to be one, nor do I act like one. I dont keep disposition logs, bills of sale or check backgrounds on anyone I do buisness with.
Know why?
I follow the law. to the letter.
South Carolina law states that a person must be a resident of South Carolina to purchase a handgun from a South Carolina dealer, and that the possession of a valid South Carolina driver?s license or Department of Motor Vehicles identification card constitutes proof of residency.
South Carolina does not require private sellers to initiate a background check when transferring a firearm.

TheSwampFox · Feb 27, 2013

I agree with you for the most part. The only thing requiring a CWP does is let the person know you are not a felon since they cant run a NICS check. In our overly litigious society I can understand where they are coming from even if I do not agree with it. It helps them sleep at night. Most of the time I just go elsewhere.

I have noticed, especially in dealing on armslist, putting that I required a SC ID or DL and bill of sale changes the type of responses I get. I never required any of that at first and would end up backing out of deals when I would google email addresses and names and get facebook pages with photos of people flashing gang signs and using narcotics or people in GA or NC wanting to meet at the state line. Now I don't get any of those. 9 times out of ten I never fill out the bill of sale because its just part of my screening process and when I do they wind up in the trash when I get home. The ID is just make sure I'm not violating any federal laws. Military ID or a some kind of proof of residency also work for me.

I do not copy any information off of someones ID and will not buy from anyone who requires a copy of mine. I don't have anything to hide but I'm not giving my personal info to anyone. It is not so much that I cannot wait to tell gov't who I sold my guns too its more of I do not sell them to someone who will likely turn around and use that firearm in a manner likely to give more fuel to the gun grabbers. I know its impossible to tell with any certainty but I feel like I have some responsibility to try.

If someone is dumb enough to post photos of themselves partaking in criminal activity or associating with known criminal elements and organizations then they are not smart enough to own my firearm. They will get one anyway but it wont be mine.

John Canuck · Feb 27, 2013

So, have you got anything good for sale?

rotarymike · Feb 27, 2013

The opposite side of the argument is that if SC has no laws about it, citizens are free to come up with their own rules. Like a no-cell-phones rule in a restaurant - you don't like it, OK no harm done but go elsewhere. Same idea here - if they want to see a CWP or ID or bill of sale with info on it, that's their choice and their right. You don't have to buy anything from them.

Lupinus · Feb 27, 2013

Their stuff, their rules.

bigfutz · Feb 27, 2013

rotarymike said:
that's their choice and their right. You don't have to buy anything from them.

I agree 100%. It's like those folks whining about people advertising 223 for $1/rd. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY IT. And if you really feel the need, then pay the price. The market controls the price. Haven't you seen the prices of AR's drop by half over the past months? Because there was just not enough people out there willing to pay $2500 for a basic DPMS.

So if someone is a "CWP Snob" just don't buy from them. You have to admit the recent surge in buyers can make even the experienced trader wary.

Once 100% registration takes effect, it won't matter how you got it anyway.

armaborealis · Feb 28, 2013

When I sell firearms in private sales, I require one of the following options:

1) Demonstrate you are not a felon by showing me a CWP, a C&R FFL03, an ID for a profession that requires some sort of background investigation (military, teacher, ec), or some other method or...
2) You can show me your driver's license and I will write out a bill of sale for my personal records, or...
3) You and I know each other from work, school, RWVA, or some other activity and I trust you because I actually know you, or...
4) We can go to an FFL and do the transfer there.

I am very pro-2A. I also have a responsibility as an adult to avoid giving firearms to lunatics and felons. Moreover, if I sell a gun in a private sale and it is ever misused in the future, guess where the trace on the 4473 will lead the investigation? To me.

I don't necessarily think that the above requirements should be mandated by the state. I do think they are a responsible way to behave.

Enjay · Feb 28, 2013

I think this is a prime example of one of the joys of living in a free country.
They're free to set their own requirements, price, and make their own judgement calls in a private transaction.
We're free to turn around and walk away if we don't like something they're requiring. It's not polite to laugh too loudly while you do so, they are armed after all

Avtomat-Acolyte · Feb 28, 2013

There have been many times where I was about to PM or E-Mail a guy with guns for sale that I wanted to buy. I would then read some extra nonsense in their ad that was above what I wanted to do so I would back away from the keyboard and let the item go to someone else.

There have been many times where I wanted an item, saw that the seller was an idiot, and decided to jump through his extra, nonsense BS to get the gun I coveted.

There is a sliding scale of desire. There is a sliding scale of patience and tolerance. Where those two intersect is where I buy a gun.

Anyone that is under the mistaken impression that they are protecting themself from anything with a "bill of sale" should ask any attorney if what they're doing would have any bearing on criminal charges one way or the other. The reality is that they won't. If you aren't going to be charged with a crime then you won't. If you are then you will, regardless of whatever unofficial, non-notarized, non-legal-document you have printed off your computer. The document has no weight and no legitimacy unless it is notarized or on ATF paperwork at an FFL.

So, in short, I will comply with unecessary BS up until the point where it is more unreasonable than my desire for the gun. P-08 Luger for $500? Bring on the BS. I will jump through hoops, sir! Yes, massa! Glock 19 for $550? Get the hell away from me, fascist. Liberty or Death.

Cohiba · Feb 28, 2013

armaborealis said:
When I sell firearms in private sales, I require one of the following options:

1) Demonstrate you are not a felon by showing me a CWP, a C&R FFL03, an ID for a profession that requires some sort of background investigation (military, teacher, ec), or some other method or...
2) You can show me your driver's license and I will write out a bill of sale for my personal records, or...
3) You and I know each other from work, school, RWVA, or some other activity and I trust you because I actually know you, or...
4) We can go to an FFL and do the transfer there.

I am very pro-2A. I also have a responsibility as an adult to avoid giving firearms to lunatics and felons. Moreover, if I sell a gun in a private sale and it is ever misused in the future, guess where the trace on the 4473 will lead the investigation? To me.

I don't necessarily think that the above requirements should be mandated by the state. I do think they are a responsible way to behave.

Laughable.
your not pro-2nd.
When people like you start making it seem the norm to do such things it wont take but a breath for it to become law and then there wont be ANY private transfers.
AND people will bend right on over and take it.
Dont you have the ability to see that the ONLY way that a registration could ever take place...EVER...is if private transfers are abolished FIRST!
And folks are setting up thier own to agree to it.

And by the way... having a concealed weapons permit doesnt prove anything. Like having a physical drivers licence doesnt prove your not suspended in the computer.
The law says not to sell to a felon, but they have no system in place for you a private citizen to check. Thats becasue of the right of privacy laws. Just like you cant check a persons medical records to see if they are on drugs or if they have been in a mental hospital.

And just a point...
Charles Whitman wasnt a felon, Nor was Adam Lanza.

Theres no piece of paper thats going to prove anything other than you were not a felon when you got that piece of paper.
The law also says you cant sell to a person who is addictided to drugs or a mentaly incompetent person. How do you test for that?

Midnight Raver · Feb 28, 2013

Just have them drink a fifth of Russian vodka and see if they are a mean drunk. If they smile like me then they are ok! :mrgreen:

Clicker · Feb 28, 2013

I believe it's fair to say armaborealis and I share the same view. I use a bill of sale simply because I feel it shows due diligence on my part.

This is part of my bill of sale:
"By my signature above, I certify that under penalty of perjury that I am not under any legal disability from purchasing or possessing a firearm under federal, state, or local law. I agree to hold seller his heirs and assigns harmless from any actions resulting from my use, possession, improper or unsafe storage or sale of this firearm. Further should I come under disability from possession of a firearm I agree to surrender this firearm to the proper authorities or return it to the seller and assign title to him. I am not acting as an agent for any person, business or agency other than myself for the purpose of this purchase and it is solely for my own use and possession and not for resale, trade, or gift. Seller warrants that this firearm is from his private collection and was not purchased originally for the purpose of resale and he is not a dealer in firearms or weapons and warrants that to the best of his knowledge and belief he purchased the firearm legally. At a later date should the firearm be declared unlawful, illegal to possess or in violation of any local, state or federal law, purchaser his or her heirs and assigns agree to hold seller harmless and without fault or recourse. Seller further states that he is not an expert in firearms and does not guarantee the firearm is safe for use. This is a bill of sale only and does not give the purchaser the right to carry or possess a firearm in violation of any local, state, or federal law. This written bill of sale takes precedence over any oral statements by either seller or purchaser."

There you go Cohiba that should pretty much take care of you ever wanting to buy any of my guns!

Dave29461 · Feb 28, 2013

Quote, "The law also says you cant sell to a person who is addictided to drugs or a mentaly incompetent person. How do you test for that?"

I can't. I go with my gut feeling and if you have subjected yourself to the indignity of obtaining a CWP, I hope you are a responsible law abiding citizen without bipolar,manic, terrorist, subversive or just run of the mill crazy tendencies. If I could run a background check without compromising either of our's privacy, I would. I try not to sell my guns unless I know the person buying it. I don't mind showing my CWP. I also have a C&R which is not completely private, as well. I do what makes me comfortable. One man's BS is another man's attempt to be responsible. You don't have to agree just learn to deal with it. Rants help sometimes.

fordnut · Feb 28, 2013

But David...You have treaded with me....and, you know I ain't right....

I feel you have to do what is right with you...I trade guns about as much as anyone I know....HEHEHE...

I have had a couple of times I have politely made the deal to unreal for the guy to take....just because I kind of had a gut feeling...That is all it takes with me....just the feeling something ain't right...

I have showed my CWP, have had people make copies of it...whatever...I really don't care...Whatever blows someones skirt up...

If it ain't right to you ....just walk away...

Steve

Dave29461 · Feb 28, 2013

I know you ain't right but you ain't wrong enough to set off my alarms. :lol:

11B3XCIB · Feb 28, 2013

The most I'd do in a private sale, if I wanted the item bad enough, would be to flash my CWP. I would never let a person make a copy of it or my driver's license. I'm not signing a bill of sale, either. The law doesn't require it. The burden of legality is on the buyer, not the seller.

If I was selling something, and felt the buyer should sign a bill of sale, it means that I didn't feel 100% about them, in which case I shouldn't sell it to them in the first place, bill of sale or not. I don't want to sign a bill of sale, so I'm not making anyone else sign one, either.

I try to avoid the situation entirely by not selling guns, but if I ever had to sell one, I'd stick to friends, family, or people from the boards.

armaborealis · Mar 1, 2013

Cohiba said:
Laughable.
your not pro-2nd.
When people like you start making it seem the norm to do such things it wont take but a breath for it to become law and then there wont be ANY private transfers.
AND people will bend right on over and take it.
Dont you have the ability to see that the ONLY way that a registration could ever take place...EVER...is if private transfers are abolished FIRST!
And folks are setting up thier own to agree to it.

And by the way... having a concealed weapons permit doesnt prove anything. Like having a physical drivers licence doesnt prove your not suspended in the computer.
The law says not to sell to a felon, but they have no system in place for you a private citizen to check. Thats becasue of the right of privacy laws. Just like you cant check a persons medical records to see if they are on drugs or if they have been in a mental hospital.

And just a point...
Charles Whitman wasnt a felon, Nor was Adam Lanza.

Theres no piece of paper thats going to prove anything other than you were not a felon when you got that piece of paper.
The law also says you cant sell to a person who is addictided to drugs or a mentaly incompetent person. How do you test for that?

1) I've signed up over a dozen people for the NRA in the last month or two. I'm a NRA, GOA, and SAF member and I donate funds above and beyond the basic fees to them. I've made dozens of phone calls, sent dozens of faxes, and sent hundreds of emails to federal and state legislators in this current panic alone, including to folks outside my home state. I've taken steps to financially boycott states which pass bullshit gun control infringing on their subjects/citizens. My wife & I both teach firearms safety classes and include a subtle amount of political education to get more people off the bench and into the game.

If you look at my past posts here you'll find that I'm a strong advocate of Constitutional Carry, restaurant carry, repealing the Hughes amendment, etc. I think that citizens should be able to possess anything on a rifle squad's or local police patrol officer's table of organization & equipment with minimal strings (including M4/M16s, SAWs, and 40mms along with standard capacity magazines and modern sidearms), anything on a platoon or SWAT team's TO&E with minor strings no worse than current CCW shall-issue requirements (including M240s), and anything on a rifle company's TO&E with no more than FFL03 C&R-style strings (light mortars, anti-tank weapons, claymores, and so on).

I oppose all forms of registration and most forms of licensing. I realize that "Universal Background Checks" are a pretext for registration, that registration leads to confiscation, and that confiscation leads to a risk of gross civil rights abuses and/or extermination. Which is why I do not support them.

Direct your fire elsewhere. There are plenty of worthy targets.

2) If we don't want the government to rule us, we must rule ourselves. The original context of the Second Amendment (and indeed the whole Constitution) assumed a virtuous society with a functional close knit community. New England small towns, Southern plantations, and even backwoods Kentucky frontier clusters were small communities where the people knew and trusted one another. Pretty much everyone knew who the Crazy Uncle Charley was, or who the habitual drunkard and felon was.

Today's society is much more mobile with much more privacy from our neighbors. If we are going to deinstitutionalize lunatics and let violent felons go in a revolving-door justice system then that means there are lunatics and felons among us. I have no more desire to arm a lunatic or felon than I do to arm a New York State Police officer. Likewise, in our open and mobile society people move all the time. How many of us on this board, right now, know every single person who lives within 5 miles of our home? Do you know which ones have criminal records? Which ones have substance abuse problems? Who takes medication for a mental illness? Who doesn't take their meds for a mental illness? Most of us don't live in a small town anymore where everyone goes to the same church, sends their kids to the same school, work in the same trades, and so on.

If we start jailing habitual violent offenders, and we ensure that lunatics get the help they need in a controlled setting, then I would feel differently. Until then, we need to realize that as our society has changed and become more mobile, we need to use good sense in helping to keep our communities safe.

3) Private sale means PRIVATE. The terms are between the buyer and the seller. If you don't like my terms, go elsewhere. I don't even require an extensive bill of sale like the other poster drafted. I just want to know who you are and what I sold you, and that slip goes into my personal records, not to be digitized or shared with anyone else ever again unless the weapon is later used in a bona fide violent crime with an actual victim (that is -- it will not be used to help a prosecution for violating some bullshit assault weapons ban law). My name is the last one on the 4473 and that trace is coming to me and I want a good explanation for why a gun traced to me was found at a murder scene.

Regardless of what you think about the efficacy of CWPs -- and I agree that they are unnecessary, and prefer constitutional carry -- the fact is that I know that CWP holders commit crimes at a rate far lower than the rest of the population. Generally the average random citizen is 3 to 20 times more violent than a CWP holder depending on the state. It is hard to find a proxy for personal responsibility that allows me to size up a random stranger in a mobile society I've never met before any faster than that.

The final option would be for you to, you know, actually know me and vice versa. Which brings us back to the importance of fostering responsible, sound communities capable of self-regulation and self-governance, both online as well as in meatspace. I would have no problem doing a private trade with someone, say, teaches in the Appleseed program with me or with a coworker.

I noticed your low post count and recent join date with posting of a controversial topic -- troll much?

Tigerstripe · Mar 1, 2013

i agree with somebody. to confused to remember who.

ive never shown anything but green papers when buying a gun from an individual. that would be a restriction we are putting on ourselves. when they wanted to sell a gun and they wanted my money, they sold a gun, legally.

on the other hand i have sold 1 gun in my life. to my landlord at the time, didnt like the gun, he was a little younger, and i wanted his money.

when i am charged a tax i dont offer extra money to the government.

if it aint broke why do we want to restrict ourselves?

you sold this gun to this guy who used it in a crime. really? what if i sold it to someone i dont know at a gun show and he sold it and again and again till your criminal got it? plus i dont know who all these people are that you say i cant sell to but there is no law saying i cant sell my gun.

so for me i dont have a problem cause ill probably never sell any more guns. as for buying, if they want my money and the gun is for sale ................

dreamerofdreams · Mar 1, 2013

Didn't we just have this discussion a few months ago? :roll:

Private sale. Make whatever terms you want. If you don't like the seller's terms, buy elsewhere.

Just because a seller has certain terms doesn't mean that the seller thinks those terms should apply to every seller or be made law.

Put your energy where it will do some good.