Lights & Lasers on Guns? Why!?
- Thread starter Avtomat-Acolyte
- Start date
Avtomat-Acolyte
Well-Known Fanatic
In case anyone is wondering, the vertical foregrip (VFG) mount on my SBR AK (AK47-SU) is offset so as to not impede magazine changes.
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
I was wondering about that. What kind of muzzle device is that?
Midnight Raver
Well-Known Fanatic
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2009
- Messages
- 2,435
- Reaction score
- 2
- City & State/Province
- Dodge City, Moscowchusetts
Interesting concept with the foregrip- does it pull to the sides at all while firing it?
Avtomat-Acolyte
Well-Known Fanatic
11B3XCIB said:
That is a 4-piece Bulgarian flash suppressor that doesn't actually suppress the flash as far as I can tell. It does, however, direct the muzzle blast away from the shooter, and helps keep the muzzle from flipping off-target too much.
Avtomat-Acolyte
Well-Known Fanatic
Midnight Raver said:
Not at all. I don't grip the VFG with a full-hand grip, anyways, I use a modified AFG-type (MagPul Angled ForeGrip) grip that affords my thumb access to the momentary-"on" button on the rear of the SureFire weaponlight. There is a pressure switch that is attached to the light that is embedded on the right-hand side of the VFG that I can also actuate using my fingers.
When using my support hand foreward of the receiver (either with or without a VFG) I don't simply use my hand to "support" the weight of the weapon. I am actively pulling the weapon towards my body. I have found this positive action to help mitigate point-of-aim shift. And, ergonomically, having the VFG at an offset angle, towards the direction my support hand is coming from, actually makes gripping the VFG that much easier and natural.
![Pampers Sensitive Baby Wipes, Clinically Proven, Fragrance Free, Unscented, Water Based, Hypoallergenic, Multi-Use, Hand Wipes 336 Wipes Total (6X Flip-Top Packs) [Packaging May Vary]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41KLBHu9CAL._SL500_.jpg)
armaborealis
Well-Known Fanatic
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2011
- Messages
- 575
- Reaction score
- 0
Every defensive weapon should have a light.
You are 100% liable for every single shot. SC has good castle doctrine but don't count on it to save you in every shoot inside your home without good target ID. And even if you are legally justified in taking the shot, you need to be able to sleep at night afterwards. That means target identification which means a light.
I am less excited about lasers. They seem good for holdout pocket pistols and for NVG usage. I think the era of the reasonably priced high quality red dot optic may make lasers a little less useful.
You are 100% liable for every single shot. SC has good castle doctrine but don't count on it to save you in every shoot inside your home without good target ID. And even if you are legally justified in taking the shot, you need to be able to sleep at night afterwards. That means target identification which means a light.
I am less excited about lasers. They seem good for holdout pocket pistols and for NVG usage. I think the era of the reasonably priced high quality red dot optic may make lasers a little less useful.
Tigerstripe
Well-Known Fanatic
armaborealis, as with some others we will have to agree to dissagree.
even on the darkest nights i dont use a light going to and from a deerstand. i have made it a point to know my surroundings. and no there is no other hunter around to shoot my noise in the dark.
as for shooting someone in my home, i know my surroundings there and i know when and who wants in. if they knock i already know who it is. if they dont knock i know who it is. if they break in they will be shot and there will be no liability issue. i will sleep like a baby, unless someone tries to break down my door again. repeat process.
i use lights. i dont on weapons. think about it, your head is just on the other side of that light. i dont think its possible for an intruder to flash a light, find me and fire before i put his lights out.
and the beat goes on.
even on the darkest nights i dont use a light going to and from a deerstand. i have made it a point to know my surroundings. and no there is no other hunter around to shoot my noise in the dark.
as for shooting someone in my home, i know my surroundings there and i know when and who wants in. if they knock i already know who it is. if they dont knock i know who it is. if they break in they will be shot and there will be no liability issue. i will sleep like a baby, unless someone tries to break down my door again. repeat process.
i use lights. i dont on weapons. think about it, your head is just on the other side of that light. i dont think its possible for an intruder to flash a light, find me and fire before i put his lights out.
and the beat goes on.
armaborealis
Well-Known Fanatic
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2011
- Messages
- 575
- Reaction score
- 0
Yep, everyone has their own situation. We all get to make our own choices. I guess to elaborate on why I think lights are useful, even for defenders in a home with a good castle doctrine law, I'll elaborate.
A defender would still need to meet the requirements for deadly force in SC, even in the home:
1) No fault in bringing about the harm. Probably not an issue in the home.
2 & 3) Subjective and objective belief of imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury... You as the defender get a presumption that someone who forcibly enters your home caused you such reasonable fear of death/SBI.
4) Duty to retreat if you can do so in safety, waived in the home.
Presumptions can be overcome with evidence. They are not iron-clad get outof jail free cards. It is good from a legal point of view to be able to identify the target and articulate why it posed an imminent threat, so that if the prosecutor attacks the castle doctrine presumption in your favor, you still have a leg to stand on. Moreover, the castle doctrine no longer helps once the conflict is outside your dwelling (or porch). What happens if the fight occurs in the driveway or extends out into the back yard? The moment the encounter is off the porch (like: a suspicious figure creeping in the bushes) you need to be able to articulate why someone would reasonably believe that the target posed an imminent threat, which is hard to do in darkness. Finally, the Castle Doctrine doesn't apply if the intruder is a LEO and you had reasonable cause to know that... If you couldn't see the badge and "POLICE" tapes because you don't have a light, then that's likely on you.
From a moral point of view, what happens if the "intruder" is a mentally ill 12 year old who wandered off away from home and poses no imminent threat? What if the intruder is a neighbor who is fleeing a DV situation in a panic? You may be able to legally shoot those folks in your home but there's a moral dimension as well that requires target identification if it can be done in a sound manner.
We all get to make our own choices and live with the consequences, though. Even if you choose not to use the light in most situations it is really, really nice to have it available for some of the cases like identifying someone skulking outside the dwelling. There are a couple of ways to skin the target ID cat (like flood lights for your yard or something) but a weapon light is one of the simpler and cheaper options.
I also like bright lights because they can be used to escalate force and deter situations WITHOUT shooting or brandishing. I've had several times where simply shining a bright surefire at someone approaching me in a sketchy manner at night caused the person to go somewhere else rapidly. I'm not saying that is option A in the home, but it would be nice to illuminate a suspicious sound in the back yard before double tapping the rustling in the bushes.
A defender would still need to meet the requirements for deadly force in SC, even in the home:
1) No fault in bringing about the harm. Probably not an issue in the home.
2 & 3) Subjective and objective belief of imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury... You as the defender get a presumption that someone who forcibly enters your home caused you such reasonable fear of death/SBI.
4) Duty to retreat if you can do so in safety, waived in the home.
Presumptions can be overcome with evidence. They are not iron-clad get outof jail free cards. It is good from a legal point of view to be able to identify the target and articulate why it posed an imminent threat, so that if the prosecutor attacks the castle doctrine presumption in your favor, you still have a leg to stand on. Moreover, the castle doctrine no longer helps once the conflict is outside your dwelling (or porch). What happens if the fight occurs in the driveway or extends out into the back yard? The moment the encounter is off the porch (like: a suspicious figure creeping in the bushes) you need to be able to articulate why someone would reasonably believe that the target posed an imminent threat, which is hard to do in darkness. Finally, the Castle Doctrine doesn't apply if the intruder is a LEO and you had reasonable cause to know that... If you couldn't see the badge and "POLICE" tapes because you don't have a light, then that's likely on you.
From a moral point of view, what happens if the "intruder" is a mentally ill 12 year old who wandered off away from home and poses no imminent threat? What if the intruder is a neighbor who is fleeing a DV situation in a panic? You may be able to legally shoot those folks in your home but there's a moral dimension as well that requires target identification if it can be done in a sound manner.
We all get to make our own choices and live with the consequences, though. Even if you choose not to use the light in most situations it is really, really nice to have it available for some of the cases like identifying someone skulking outside the dwelling. There are a couple of ways to skin the target ID cat (like flood lights for your yard or something) but a weapon light is one of the simpler and cheaper options.
I also like bright lights because they can be used to escalate force and deter situations WITHOUT shooting or brandishing. I've had several times where simply shining a bright surefire at someone approaching me in a sketchy manner at night caused the person to go somewhere else rapidly. I'm not saying that is option A in the home, but it would be nice to illuminate a suspicious sound in the back yard before double tapping the rustling in the bushes.
rotarymike
Well-Known Fanatic
This is why I keep a surefire next to my pistol. I always have the choice to light 'em up, either way, as situation demands.
Enjay
Well-Known Fanatic
I have a light on one of my shotguns but I'm ambiguous about it. My husband likes them and mounted it to my 870 when he was putting all the things on it that he wanted for a home defense shotgun. Since I promptly stripped most of them off when it passed into my hands I left the flashlight as a concession. :lol:
I do like a laser on my handgun, especially since I wear glasses and probably won't stop to put them on were someone to break in while i was asleep. Rather than squinting around trying to line up the blurry dot with the smudgy thing it's just easier to know the bullet will go where the red dot sits.
I do like a laser on my handgun, especially since I wear glasses and probably won't stop to put them on were someone to break in while i was asleep. Rather than squinting around trying to line up the blurry dot with the smudgy thing it's just easier to know the bullet will go where the red dot sits.
TheSwampFox
Well-Known Fanatic
It sounds to me like Tigerstripe lives out in the country surrounded by wide open space and wildlife. In his situation a light wouldn't be much of a benefit since he does not have to worry about pesky neighbors being his back stop. If I were lucky enough to live out in the country a light/laser would be less of a concern for me as well.
In a suburban or urban setting target ID and round accountability are incredibly important. The last time I was awakened in the night it was my neighbor who is elderly and lives alone who had a water pipe burst in her house at about 2 am. She didn't know how to shut off the water and in panic came to my house and was frantically banging on the door. She never knew it but while I was asking her to identify herself on the other side of that door I had .45 pointed right at her. Just because someone is one your property in the dead of night doesn't mean they are a threat.
I'm also quite certain that the materials modern homes are built out of will not stop a typical handgun round. Any misses on my part will end up in a neighbors house. I've never fired gun immediately after coming out of a deep sleep so I don't want to risk my accuracy being off. I use the laser as a guide but I know they wont do any good if you don't maintain a proper grip and trigger press.
In a suburban or urban setting target ID and round accountability are incredibly important. The last time I was awakened in the night it was my neighbor who is elderly and lives alone who had a water pipe burst in her house at about 2 am. She didn't know how to shut off the water and in panic came to my house and was frantically banging on the door. She never knew it but while I was asking her to identify herself on the other side of that door I had .45 pointed right at her. Just because someone is one your property in the dead of night doesn't mean they are a threat.
I'm also quite certain that the materials modern homes are built out of will not stop a typical handgun round. Any misses on my part will end up in a neighbors house. I've never fired gun immediately after coming out of a deep sleep so I don't want to risk my accuracy being off. I use the laser as a guide but I know they wont do any good if you don't maintain a proper grip and trigger press.
Tigerstripe
Well-Known Fanatic
i gave you guys several chances.
this a place to share and disscuss, you cant make me put a light on one of my guns. you dont even know if i have a light on one of my guns.
i have an opinion on the subject and lots of you think it is your job to change my mind. you dont believe me in my statements."what if a 12 year old wanders up?"
read my last post. if someone knocks on the door i already know who it is. ie 12 year old, dont shoot him.
if someone breaks down my door i already know who he is. ie invader, kill.
someone fleeing in a panic doesnt break down my door. ie open door with weapon after turning on the porch light.
i dont double tap the rustling bushes. there are other deturants for that.
come on, keep telling me why i need a light on my gun. i can type as long as you can.
this a place to share and disscuss, you cant make me put a light on one of my guns. you dont even know if i have a light on one of my guns.
i have an opinion on the subject and lots of you think it is your job to change my mind. you dont believe me in my statements."what if a 12 year old wanders up?"
read my last post. if someone knocks on the door i already know who it is. ie 12 year old, dont shoot him.
if someone breaks down my door i already know who he is. ie invader, kill.
someone fleeing in a panic doesnt break down my door. ie open door with weapon after turning on the porch light.
i dont double tap the rustling bushes. there are other deturants for that.
come on, keep telling me why i need a light on my gun. i can type as long as you can.
TheSwampFox
Well-Known Fanatic
Tigerstripe said:
I don't give two shits if you put a light on your gun or not. I thought I conceded your argument. Different circumstances dictate different responses. Your circumstance suits your response. I was merely sharing and discussing my circumstance and why I do want a light on my gun. If we are going to take someones opinion and interpret that as a mandate fine I can do that too.
You can't make me take my light off my gun and fire indiscriminately into the darkness.
If someone is breaking down my door to hell with the neighbors I'm going to fill the whole block with hot brass.
If someone is knocking on my door to see if someones home before kicking it down I'm going to turn on the porch light and let them know I'm right on the other side of the door and they should direct their fire accordingly.
I don't shoot at bushes I have turrets for that.
See I can be touchy and go off too. I do appreciate all the chances I was given.
(sarcasm off)
Relax, can't we state how feel without people feeling like we are trying to change them? No one ever said "Hey you're wrong. Go put a light on gun right now."
kg4kpg
Well-Known Fanatic
Well, I might as well jump in to see if I can get someone to hate me too. My pistol doesn't have a rail so I can't mount anything. Don't really want to. My father-in-law gave me a laser for my last pistol but I never used it. Saw a guy in a little pistol match with a laser and the bullets may have hit were it was pointing at the time he pulled the trigger, but not one shot was in a kill zone on his target (as I interpret kill zones). He couldn't even hold the thing steady, gave me a headache. I say to each his own, if you like it, run with it. As for a light, I have a nice little Sure Fire next to my alarm clock so if I need to get out of bed quick I can grab it and the gun in a second. I have no problem managing them both together and I can strobe it or keep a steady light stream wherever the gun and I are looking. I'm no pistol expert but I figure whatever position you're most comfortable shooting from in the dark or light, do your thing. I'm just as comfortable with an AR carbine with a pistol so I can go either way. Lord knows I've trained with it enough. Oh, and in reality, I see really well in the dark and usually there is enough ambient light coming through the curtains. I'm also just as comfortable in the dark. You throw on a bright light, even pointed away from you, your pupils will close up some and affect your night vision.
Midnight Raver
Well-Known Fanatic
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2009
- Messages
- 2,435
- Reaction score
- 2
- City & State/Province
- Dodge City, Moscowchusetts
If Tigerstripe doesn't want or need a flashlight that's good enough for me...
and besides, maybe he has nightvision gear! :idea:
Either way, cut the brother some slack- it has been kind of queasy around here as of late and seems to be getting somewhat better now. :mrgreen:
and besides, maybe he has nightvision gear! :idea:
Either way, cut the brother some slack- it has been kind of queasy around here as of late and seems to be getting somewhat better now. :mrgreen:
Tigerstripe
Well-Known Fanatic
swamp fox i tried to quote you but when i did my responce didnt copy.
anyway i said
i reread your post and you did concede my argument.
i apologise. your first paragraph was the consesion and now i see that the rest was about yours and others choices. oops.
and lastly i tried to be funny. "there is a new guy that wants to know where your neighborhood full of hot brass is"
anyway i said
i reread your post and you did concede my argument.
i apologise. your first paragraph was the consesion and now i see that the rest was about yours and others choices. oops.
and lastly i tried to be funny. "there is a new guy that wants to know where your neighborhood full of hot brass is"
TheSwampFox
Well-Known Fanatic
No worries Tigerstripe.
I hope my last comment was taken with all the sillyness and sarcasm with which it was intended. :lol:
And if part of it seemed snippy I apologize.
Consider the hatchet buried
I for one blame the whole thing on Avtomat-Acolyte
Only Kidding!
I hope my last comment was taken with all the sillyness and sarcasm with which it was intended. :lol:
And if part of it seemed snippy I apologize.
Consider the hatchet buried
I for one blame the whole thing on Avtomat-Acolyte
Only Kidding!
Tigerstripe
Well-Known Fanatic
now night vision is a different story.
mine are only gen 1. :lol:
my wife and i signed up for a door prize at Gradys years ago, $500. cant believe it but i won. we went back, i wanted binos but they were more difficult so i got 2 of the mono type. they work but at limited distances. dont go on a gun either.
oh, and a range finder also.
mine are only gen 1. :lol:
my wife and i signed up for a door prize at Gradys years ago, $500. cant believe it but i won. we went back, i wanted binos but they were more difficult so i got 2 of the mono type. they work but at limited distances. dont go on a gun either.
oh, and a range finder also.
