jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
I never understood a mag length limit in open. Might as well call it kinda open 😜Wall said:
Any interest in an 2 gun match? Pistol/Rifle
- Thread starter ltrain7281
- Start date
ltrain7281
Well-Known Fanatic
Ok, after reading what you guys have posted today, take a look at these divisions and let me know what you think.
Open-
1.Rifle- two sights- scope, red dot with or without magnifier, and offset sight, red dot or irons or what ever else.
A. Rifle mags- drums, couplers, 40-50-60 what ever, it's open, basically as long as you can carry it to the line its legal for open.
2.Pistol- red dot sight- comp, 170mm mags, no restriction on the amount of rounds just on magazine length.
Tac Ops-
1. Rifle- One sight- can be scope or red dot or red dot with a magnifier, no other sights allowed on the gun
A.- Rifle mags- 30 round mags or smaller only, can be coupled with another 30 round or smaller mag.
2. Pistol- iron sights, 140mm mags, no restriction on the amount of rounds just on magazine length.
Tac Irons-
1.Rifle- iron sights only, no other sights allowed on the gun
A. Rifle mags- 30 round mags or smaller only, can be coupled with another 30 round or smaller mag.
2. Pistol- iron sights, 140mm mags, no restrictions on the amount of rounds just on magazine length.
Everything will be scored USPSA minor, there was some comments above about what type of distances we will use for rifle. I plan on using both our 100 and 300 yard bays and also the 50 yard bay for rifle stages. We will also have some up close and personnel stages on the pistol bays with the rifle. What I would like to do is have a minimum of 6 stages per match at least 3 pistol and 3 rifle. Some of these stages may require you to use both guns some may only require one. Stages that require the use of both we will have a place setup to dump the first gun safely then transition to the next gun to finish the stage. I really don't want to have to use slings so we will set up dump table or barrels for the stages that require two guns.
Also a question on safety, what are 3GN's rules on when you dump a weapon on a table or in a barrel? Does it have to be on safety? If so, are you DQ'ed if you do not put it on safety or is it just a procedural on that stage? My personnel opinion on this is that I don't think it is quit a DQ'able offense but I do think that it is worth at least one procedural.
Open-
1.Rifle- two sights- scope, red dot with or without magnifier, and offset sight, red dot or irons or what ever else.
A. Rifle mags- drums, couplers, 40-50-60 what ever, it's open, basically as long as you can carry it to the line its legal for open.
2.Pistol- red dot sight- comp, 170mm mags, no restriction on the amount of rounds just on magazine length.
Tac Ops-
1. Rifle- One sight- can be scope or red dot or red dot with a magnifier, no other sights allowed on the gun
A.- Rifle mags- 30 round mags or smaller only, can be coupled with another 30 round or smaller mag.
2. Pistol- iron sights, 140mm mags, no restriction on the amount of rounds just on magazine length.
Tac Irons-
1.Rifle- iron sights only, no other sights allowed on the gun
A. Rifle mags- 30 round mags or smaller only, can be coupled with another 30 round or smaller mag.
2. Pistol- iron sights, 140mm mags, no restrictions on the amount of rounds just on magazine length.
Everything will be scored USPSA minor, there was some comments above about what type of distances we will use for rifle. I plan on using both our 100 and 300 yard bays and also the 50 yard bay for rifle stages. We will also have some up close and personnel stages on the pistol bays with the rifle. What I would like to do is have a minimum of 6 stages per match at least 3 pistol and 3 rifle. Some of these stages may require you to use both guns some may only require one. Stages that require the use of both we will have a place setup to dump the first gun safely then transition to the next gun to finish the stage. I really don't want to have to use slings so we will set up dump table or barrels for the stages that require two guns.
Also a question on safety, what are 3GN's rules on when you dump a weapon on a table or in a barrel? Does it have to be on safety? If so, are you DQ'ed if you do not put it on safety or is it just a procedural on that stage? My personnel opinion on this is that I don't think it is quit a DQ'able offense but I do think that it is worth at least one procedural.
Dump barrels/buckets, not tables. Guns fall off of tables......frequently.ltrain7281 said:
Abandoned on safe or completely empty. Failure to do so is dq. It's safety issue, often times the shooter & ro will proceed downrange of the abandoned weapon to complete the course of fire.
Glad I don't shoot a red dot. Doubt you will have much participation from red dots. Lumped in with scopes will be a huge disadvantage.
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
Like Tony mentioned the one rule that's gonna kill people is lumping red dots without a magnifier with scopes. HUGE disadvantage to only have a red dot past 50 yards versus a variable power scope.ltrain7281 said:
The one rule I don't love is the rifle mag limit on Tac Ops. Simply because every mag I have in my bag has a taran tactical extension on it for 3-gun. Plus I like to shoot the long stuff prone using my coupled 40 round Pmags as a monopod. As long as it's ok to simply download the higher cap mags to 30 rounds I'm cool with it. But it would be easier to simply go with the 3GN club or regional rules for rifle and/or pistol simply because you could copy/paste those rather then write your own.
Here is a link to the 3GN club series rules.
http://3gunnation.com/club_series/rules
1.5 GROUNDING FIREARMS
1.5 a) Abandoned Firearm Definition:
Any firearm left in a designated container, in an undesignated location (on a table, on top of a barrel etc.) or at a stipulated start position in any condition, unless the muzzle is breaking the 180-degree Safety Plane (Rule 2.5)
1.5 b) Grounded Firearm Definition:
A firearm will not be considered grounded until another firearm is discharged. You are permitted to go back and rectify incorrectly abandoned firearms left in an incorrect condition or location until the next firearm is discharged. All 180 degree rules apply and competitor must be safely behind the firearm before touching and while handling the abandoned firearm. You will be allowed to go back, retrieve an abandoned firearm and re-engage targets without penalty. A re-holstered pistol is not considered grounded, but a pistol abandoned in a designated container will be considered grounded after the next firearm is discharged. Any firearm that has been grounded may be retrieved and used in the course of fire, but will incur penalty. (Rule 3.4.1)
1.5.1 During the course of fire, a competitor may be required to ground a firearm in order to transition to another. Designated containers designed to safely accommodate grounded firearms shall be specified in the Written Stage Briefing. (Rule 2.4.1,2.4.2, 3.12)
1.5.1a If a Pistol is to be grounded, it must be placed into the small designated containers only. However, if a pistol is grounded in the incorrect designated container, the following penalties or match DQ will apply. (Rule 2.4.1a, 2.4.1b, 2.4.2b, 3.12)
1.5.1b If Rifles or Shotguns are to be grounded, they must be placed into the large designated containers only.
There are two acceptable safe methods to ground a firearm.
1.5.1.1 Safety Condition One "Loaded with Safety Engaged"
1.5.1.1.1 Pistols with any type of manual safety lever must be engaged to satisfy the “loaded on safe†condition regardless of passive safeties.
1.5.1.1.2 Pistols without a manual safety must have passive safeties in operational condition; this will satisfy the safety engaged requirement. A "Passive Safety" is a safety that engages automatically and disables the firearm from discharging while the firearm is not being handled. "Safe Action" striker safeties or "Passive Trigger Safeties" fall under this ruling. "Operational" means: The safety operates correctly as intended. It must not be altered or disabled in a way that while not being handled, the safety features can no longer prevent the firearm from discharging.
1.5.1.1.3 If the pistol has no manual safety and the only manual lever is a de-cocking mechanism, it must be engaged and the hammer must be de-cocked to satisfy the safety engaged condition.
Club Series Only
1.5.1.2 Safety Condition Two "Completely Empty"
1.5.1.2.1 Completely Empty chamber, with no live rounds in the feed tube or the magazine removed.
1.5.1.2.2 Completely Empty chamber, slide/bolt locked open with empty feed tube or loaded magazine removed.
1.5.1.2.3 Completely Empty chamber, slide/bolt forward with an empty feed tube or unloaded magazine inserted.
Regional Series Only
1.5.1.2 Safety Condition Two "Empty Chamber"
1.5.1.2.1 Empty chamber, with no live rounds in the feed tube or the magazine removed.
1.5.1.2.2 Empty chamber, slide/bolt locked open with loaded feed tube or loaded magazine inserted.
1.5.1.2.3 Empty chamber, slide/bolt forward with a loaded feed tube or loaded magazine inserted.
Exception: Spent round in the chamber constitutes an empty chamber.
1.5.2 Re-holstering a loaded pistol. A course of fire will never require a competitor to re-holster a pistol after the start signal.
However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely as per Rules 1.5.1.1, 1.5.1.2, 1.5.1.3
1.5.3 When clearing the firearm at the end of the COF, any round(s) that are found inadvertently left touching a firearm do not constitute a loaded chamber or loading device. (eg.. live round that has stove piped, live round in the mag well)
Endangering any person, including yourself, through unsafe gun handling is not allowed. This includes sweeping one’s self or anyone else with a loaded or unloaded firearm. Sweeping is defined as allowing the muzzle of the firearm (loaded or unloaded) to cross or cover any portion of a person or an object a person might reasonably be assumed to occupy, such as a car, portable toilet, or structure that is not a prop within the current stage. The penalty for endangering is match disqualification.
Exception 1 - A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns.
Exception 2 - A match disqualification is not applicable to changing choke tubes or magazine end cap tension on an unloaded shotgun and/or cleaning the muzzle device on an unloaded rifle or pistol, provided the competitor’s hand is the only part of any person covered by the muzzle.
Here is a link to the 3GN regional series rules.
http://3gunnation.com/regionals/rules_awards
1.5 GROUNDING FIREARMS
1.5 a) Abandoned Firearm Definition:
Any firearm left in a designated container, in an undesignated location (on a table, on top of a barrel etc.) or at a stipulated
start position in any condition, unless the muzzle is breaking the 180-degree Safety Plane (Rule 2.5)
1.5 b) Grounded Firearm Definition:
A firearm will not be considered grounded until another firearm is discharged. You are permitted to go back and rectify incorrectly abandoned firearms left in an incorrect condition or location until the next firearm is discharged. All 180 degree rules apply and competitor must be safely behind the firearm before touching and while handling the abandoned firearm. You will be allowed to go back, retrieve an abandoned firearm and re-engage targets without penalty. A re-holstered pistol is not considered grounded, but a pistol abandoned in a designated container will be considered grounded after the next firearm is discharged. Any firearm that has been grounded may be retrieved and used in the course of fire, but will incur penalty. (Rule 3.4.1)
1.5.1 During the course of fire, a competitor may be required to ground a firearm in order to transition to another. Designated containers designed to safely accommodate grounded firearms shall be specified in the Written Stage Briefing. (Rule 2.4.1,2.4.2, 3.12)
1.5.1a If a Pistol is to be grounded, it must be placed into the small designated containers only. However, if a pistol is grounded in the incorrect designated container, the following penalties or match DQ will apply. (Rule 2.4.1a, 2.4.1b, 2.4.2b, 3.12)
1.5.1b If Rifles or Shotguns are to be grounded, they must be placed into the large designated containers only.
There are two acceptable safe methods to ground a firearm.
1.5.1.1 Safety Condition One "Loaded with Safety Engaged"
1.5.1.1.1 Pistols with any type of manual safety lever must be engaged to satisfy the “loaded on safe†condition regardless of passive safeties.
1.5.1.1.2 Pistols without a manual safety must have passive safeties in operational condition; this will satisfy the safety engaged requirement. A "Passive Safety" is a safety that engages automatically and disables the firearm from discharging while the firearm is not being handled. "Safe Action" striker safeties or "Passive Trigger Safeties" fall under this ruling. "Operational" means: The safety operates correctly as intended. It must not be altered or disabled in a way that while not being handled, the safety features can no longer prevent the firearm from discharging.
1.5.1.1.3 If the pistol has no manual safety and the only manual lever is a de-cocking mechanism, it must be engaged and the hammer must be de-cocked to satisfy the safety engaged condition.
1.5.1.2 Safety Condition Two "Empty Chamber"
1.5.1.2.1 Empty chamber, with no live rounds in the feed tube or the magazine removed.
1.5.1.2.2 Empty chamber, slide/bolt locked open with loaded feed tube or loaded magazine inserted.
1.5.1.2.3 Empty chamber, slide/bolt forward with a loaded feed tube or loaded magazine inserted.
Exception: Spent round in the chamber constitutes an empty chamber.
1.5.2 Re-holstering a loaded pistol. A course of fire will never require a competitor to re-holster a pistol after the start signal.
However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely as per Rules 1.5.1.1, 1.5.1.2, 1.5.1.3
1.5.3 When clearing the firearm at the end of the COF, any round(s) that are found inadvertently left touching a firearm do not constitute a loaded chamber or loading device. (eg.. live round that has stove piped, live round in the mag well)
Endangering any person, including yourself, through unsafe gun handling is not allowed. This includes sweeping one’s self or anyone else with a loaded or unloaded firearm. Sweeping is defined as allowing the muzzle of the firearm (loaded or unloaded) to cross or cover any portion of a person or an object a person might reasonably be assumed to occupy, such as a car, portable toilet, or structure that is not a prop within the current stage. The penalty for endangering is match disqualification.
Exception 1 - A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns.
Exception 2 - A match disqualification is not applicable to changing choke tubes or magazine end cap tension on an unloaded shotgun and/or cleaning the muzzle device on an unloaded rifle or pistol, provided the competitor’s hand is the only part of any person covered by the muzzle.
OR3GUN
Sponsor
Agree with others on red dots being lumped in with scopes, especially with the stipulation in your rules to allow no other sights on the gun. A red dot without a set of back-up irons is not going to make people happy. A scope without a battery is still an optic, not so with most red dots. The only other thing you could do to ensure nobody shows up with a red dot is paint all of your targets red. Especially the long range. We love that. It isn't enough to have 60 targets past 100 yards in an outlaw match, if you could make them the same color as our dot and also take a bunch of rounds out of our magazines that would be great.
Our local club morphed from IDPA into 3-Gun over several years. We found that those of us already shooting 3-Gun somewhere else were well equipped, but we had a number of people digging pump hunting shotguns and cheap ARs out of the closet to compete. It sounds like you have some of the same demographic you are attempting to serve outside of traditional 3-Gun. Coming from USPSA rather than IDPA will likely change pistol around, but here is what we came up with:
Pistol - If it was legal in any IDPA division or USPSA Production it was legal in any 3-Gun division. Period. All holster and belt placement rules applied. All at 10+1
Rifle - Limited included irons AND single red dot. Tac Ops added the option of magnification. Back-up iron sights didn't count as a sighting system.
Shotgun - All divisions start with 5+1. Run as long of magazine tube as you want. Factory ported shotguns (common on turkey/waterfowl) were allowed.
Option targets in stage design are where it is at if you want to cater to the minimally equipped, rather than ditching shotgun altogether. Anything that isn't a clay can be engaged with pistol or shotgun. As an example of how far up the chain this concept has been taken, the entire 8-stage 3GN Western Regional could have been shot with less than 25 rounds of bird shot and 2 slugs. Shotgun reloading was an irrelevant skill unless you chose it to be. (Or, you could be sponsored by a shotgun company and like an idiot shoot every possible piece of steel you could with shotgun and even send a few slugs at paper.) Stage design is where you can allow people to play to their strengths and preferred weapon platform. Targets that 'can' be engaged with rifle by the accurate or alternately allowing shooters to sprint up the bay and hose them all with pistol are what will allow people to weight the match into using the guns and other skills (movement) they are happiest using.
Another approach is to establish fairly loose divisions and see what your local shooters show up with. When we shot our second night 3-Gun we created divisions based on what showed up the year before. If you had rail-mounted Streamlights, red dots and Crimson Trace lasers on everything you found yourself in Tactical Nerdery. If you had wind up flashlights and zip ties you were in Tactical Duct-Tape. If you are truly working with a group that is outside traditional mainstream 3-Gun you either force them into mainstream 3-gun or into your own personal bias by establishing divisions prior to knowing what people have in their closets.
Our local club morphed from IDPA into 3-Gun over several years. We found that those of us already shooting 3-Gun somewhere else were well equipped, but we had a number of people digging pump hunting shotguns and cheap ARs out of the closet to compete. It sounds like you have some of the same demographic you are attempting to serve outside of traditional 3-Gun. Coming from USPSA rather than IDPA will likely change pistol around, but here is what we came up with:
Pistol - If it was legal in any IDPA division or USPSA Production it was legal in any 3-Gun division. Period. All holster and belt placement rules applied. All at 10+1
Rifle - Limited included irons AND single red dot. Tac Ops added the option of magnification. Back-up iron sights didn't count as a sighting system.
Shotgun - All divisions start with 5+1. Run as long of magazine tube as you want. Factory ported shotguns (common on turkey/waterfowl) were allowed.
Option targets in stage design are where it is at if you want to cater to the minimally equipped, rather than ditching shotgun altogether. Anything that isn't a clay can be engaged with pistol or shotgun. As an example of how far up the chain this concept has been taken, the entire 8-stage 3GN Western Regional could have been shot with less than 25 rounds of bird shot and 2 slugs. Shotgun reloading was an irrelevant skill unless you chose it to be. (Or, you could be sponsored by a shotgun company and like an idiot shoot every possible piece of steel you could with shotgun and even send a few slugs at paper.) Stage design is where you can allow people to play to their strengths and preferred weapon platform. Targets that 'can' be engaged with rifle by the accurate or alternately allowing shooters to sprint up the bay and hose them all with pistol are what will allow people to weight the match into using the guns and other skills (movement) they are happiest using.
Another approach is to establish fairly loose divisions and see what your local shooters show up with. When we shot our second night 3-Gun we created divisions based on what showed up the year before. If you had rail-mounted Streamlights, red dots and Crimson Trace lasers on everything you found yourself in Tactical Nerdery. If you had wind up flashlights and zip ties you were in Tactical Duct-Tape. If you are truly working with a group that is outside traditional mainstream 3-Gun you either force them into mainstream 3-gun or into your own personal bias by establishing divisions prior to knowing what people have in their closets.
irons_shooter
TOLA Guy
So basically what everyone is suggesting is USPSA rules. Red dots with irons, no mag length restriction on rifle and pistol at 140mm for all but open and 170 for open... There Loren, I just summed up two pages of comments.. 
BTW, USPSA is extremely serious about multi-gun and having the best rule set possible.. I think the newest rules that are about to be released will prove that.. But then again, I may be a little biased..
BTW, USPSA is extremely serious about multi-gun and having the best rule set possible.. I think the newest rules that are about to be released will prove that.. But then again, I may be a little biased..
Burk Cornelius
Regular guy
We shall call the new sport 2 Gun Nation (R)
posted via Tapatalk
posted via Tapatalk
Matt1911
Cyrwus Jr.
As long as tacos and Shiner are there for the after party, I'm in.
ltrain7281
Well-Known Fanatic
Thank you everyone for all the comments and suggestions, I think the easiest way to keep this with in the guide lines of KISS is to just use 3GN rules for rifle and pistol divisions like what Jesse purposed. This is what everyone shoots and their guns are already setup for their respected divisions. So the divisions will be Limited, Practical, and Unlimited, (Or what ever you call them) all division rules regarding equipment on the gun and mag restrictions will apply. I think most of you guys are familiar with these rules so this will be nothing out of the ordinary for you. Basically the only thing that will be different is the scoring as we will still use USPSA style scoring with everything being scored minor. If we use both guns in a stage there will be a dump barrel for the rifle and a box for the pistol. Also, if you missed it earlier about the distances that will be shot in this match plan on rifle shots from 5 to 300 yards. We don't have a lot of distance but we will make the best out of what we got.
Now time for another the really hard part. I do not plan on having this match every month, I was thinking about maybe every other month to start with unless there is a huge support for it. This will have to be a Sunday match due to setup. OFGC shoots USPSA on the third Sunday of every month and USSA shoots on the second Sunday of every month. This only leaves the first and last Sundays available. Does anyone know if this will interfere with any other local matches? I know that CASA (Close to Little Rock) shoots the first Sunday of the month but I doubt that affects any of the OK shooters?
Now time for another the really hard part. I do not plan on having this match every month, I was thinking about maybe every other month to start with unless there is a huge support for it. This will have to be a Sunday match due to setup. OFGC shoots USPSA on the third Sunday of every month and USSA shoots on the second Sunday of every month. This only leaves the first and last Sundays available. Does anyone know if this will interfere with any other local matches? I know that CASA (Close to Little Rock) shoots the first Sunday of the month but I doubt that affects any of the OK shooters?
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
OKC gun club has their big USPSA match on first Saturday. I'm guessing that long day will kill all but the iron men from having the kitchen pass and the will power to shoot two days in a row.ltrain7281 said:
I'd guess last Sunday fits best from an OKC standpoint.
Huntersworld
Fanatic
I'll do it. I don't care about tit or tat (well, maybe I care about tit)... I am not that good. I just need an excuse to get out and practice using my pistol and rifle.
drmitchgibson
The white Morgan Freeman
First Sunday or fourth Sunday.
drmitchgibson
The white Morgan Freeman
Does anyone in this region shoot 3GN?
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
Double tap was using 3GN rules and classifiers last yearWall said:
Loren, glad to here if another match in the works. The only thing I would add is to try to design stages with options. That is another thing that makes multi-gun fun is having various stage plans available.
Also, I'd vote for last Sunday of the month. If we get Okc 3gun running again, it normally falls on last Saturday of the month
Also, I'd vote for last Sunday of the month. If we get Okc 3gun running again, it normally falls on last Saturday of the month
