Any interest in an 2 gun match? Pistol/Rifle

[ltrain7281]

Hello everyone,

I want to first thank you to all the moderators and staff that started and run this sight. Thank you all for making this a great site for people like myself to ask questions and get honest feedback from actual shooters. Over the last several years I have got to meet a great deal of you guys and realize that most of you take your shooting very serious which is why I always like to put these topics on BoomerShooter and get your guys opinions.

Something I have been thinking about lately and am wanting to start up at OFGC is a new outlaw match that will use just a pistol and rifle, a 2 gun match. Now I will tell you why I wanted to start this match, I have been shooting USPSA matches now for 4 years and since then I watched the 3gun and multigun matches at our club on tv and on youtube. These look to be extremely fun but over the last two years I have heard a lot of complaints from different shooters of all skill levels about these matches. Several of the most common complaints are: Shotguns and all the gear associated with this gun, scoring or the lack of accuracy, all the running that a lot of the matches are incorporating into their stages, and last but not least is the complexity of the stages that require you load your shotguns with different ammo (slugs, buckshot, birdshot) and engage targets that require that particular ammo.

Now I do not want to get a turd storm started between the 3gun crowd and the USPSA crowd. What I want is a good discussion between both sides about what type of rules/regs, and stages you would like to see in just a two match.

I brought this topic up this past week at our monthly practical pistol meeting as I wanted to hear what some of our seasoned shooters would like to see. Here is some of the points that they made that they would like to see in a 2 gun match. These are in no particular order.

1. K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid, We do not want this to be complicated match, we want this to be a match that makes you a better shooter with your pistol and your rifle.
2. Scoring will be standard USPSA minor scoring for all divisions.
3. Divisions- (KISS strategy applied) only Open and Limited divisions.
A. Open division- Pistol with a red dot, no limit on mag capacity. Rifle can have two sights of whatever configuration. EX. main optic is magnified and secondary sight is an offset red dot or set of irons. Magnifiers that flip out of the way with a normal red dot sight are also included in open division. EX. magnifier with and Aimpoint or Eotech.
B. Limited division- Pistol only has iron sights- Mag capacity of 15 in the mag and 1 bullet in the chamber at the start signal. Rifle can only have one sight of any kind.
C. Mag capacity for Rifle is only 30 round mags and smaller. You can couple them together with other mags if so desired. No 40-50-60-100 or drums allowed.
4. Stages (KISS strategy applied)- Some stages will require the use of both guns and some stages will only require one gun, basically the match will have some pistol only stages and rifle only stages and then some stages will require you to use both guns.
5. This is a shooting match NOT a track meet! If you enjoy running you are a sick individual and need to seek help. Joking aside this is a shooting event and we want to test how fast you can pull the trigger and still hit what you are aiming at not run 50 or 100 yards and not pass out.

These are just a few of the points that were made the other night at our meeting. What I would like now is get the shooters here on this website engaged and see what you all would like to see and shoot. We are not trying to re-invent the wheel here what we want to do is have a sport that uses the two most popular guns that everyone seems to enjoy shooting and keep it simple and safe.

So everyone get your popcorn and drinks out and let hear what you would like to shoot.

Thanks,

Loren

Also, Mods I wasn't for sure which section to put this topic in, so if this need to be in a different thread or area please let me know and I will try to copy and paste to that section.

 

[Matt1911]

I think it sounds awesome! I haven't made it out to Arkansas in way too long.
A match like this is what I wish we had all the time over here.

 

[jtischauser]

1-gun is fun, 2-gun is fun. 3-gun is fun. Rifle pistol work good together. I believe The shotgun is a big reason why a lot of pistol guys don't do 3-gun. It's a complex platform and most gun owners don't have the type of shotgun lying around that would be remotely competitive with our gamer shotguns.

I shot the first US Carbine Association Nationals a few years ago. It was different then USPSA in scoring and had a little more tactical feel to it. You might look at what they did. Especially when it comes to slinging the rifles versus abandoning the long guns like we do in 3-gun.

 

[poopgiggle]

Oil Cap runs (ran?) a defensive rifle match that IIRC also had pistol shooting. Might be worth looking at their ruleset.

 

[jtischauser]

Oil Cap runs (ran?) a defensive rifle match that IIRC also had pistol shooting. Might be worth looking at their ruleset.

Or not. That match was way too idpa for this community IMHO.

 

[poopgiggle]

if oil cap is running it i'm not surprised.

maybe take out any rule with the words "cover" or "concealment"


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[Fyrtwuck]

Sounds like it could be fun.

 

[jtischauser]

if oil cap is running it i'm not surprised.

maybe take out any rule with the words "cover" or "concealment"


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This along with the idpa type scoring. While I can appreciate the need for accuracy in a self defense situation it's a lot more fun to shoot a lot faster with slightly less accuracy.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm a big fan of hosing paper and shooting on the move. I feel the accuracy part of the action shooting should be tested with the use of longer, tighter, awkward shots on the upper A zone, smaller steel and stuff like that. After shooting 3-gun heavily for 5 years even the act of shooting allAlphas in USPSA feels slow and almost boring compared to two anywhere to neutralize.

I guess the scoring part boils down to what your goals are with the match. If you're going after the tactical/defensive aspects accuracy is paramount. If your just having fun shooting stuff you can't shoot out behind the barn then I vote to speed things up.

 

[mike cyrwus]

you know, shotguns dont have to be always be turned into the carnival rides that they have become.

start with shotgun, pound 4 poppers with birdshot, then transition to another gun. SENSIBLE use of shotguns by match designers would render all of those arguments you listed null and void. Heck, even a pump would lose .5sec at worst with sensible scenarios like what i described.

 

[jtischauser]

you know, shotguns dont have to be always be turned into the carnival rides that they have become.

start with shotgun, pound 4 poppers with birdshot, then transition to another gun. SENSIBLE use of shotguns by match designers would render all of those arguments you listed null and void. Heck, even a pump would lose .5sec at worst with sensible scenarios like what i described.

Very good point! Or we could just rack the action on the pump and all the targets would get scared away. Just like on the streets.

 

[Wall]

Not a fan of the proposed divisions.
Open, tac optics & tac irons.
Open, because of obvious reasons. Tac Irons & tac optics because of magnified vs non magnified rifle.

I like the fact that someone smart recognizes that were talking about a shooting match rather than a track meet with a little shooting sprinkled in here & there.

Scoring, I agree with Jesse. 2 anywhere or 1 alpha to neutralize makes for a fast paced fun match. You can slow things down & force accuracy with tight shots in stage design. I would suggest in scoring to stay away from a total time type system. What we were using for okc 3gun was time plus but with stage points like uspsa. So the stage winner gets 100 points & everyone else gets the percentage they shot of the stage winner. This keeps it competitive throughout the whole match. With the stage points, you can screw up a stage or have your gun go down or whatever, without costing you the whole match. With total time, it pretty much boils down to the best long range shooter wins.

However you do it, it sounds fun & I'm looking forward to it. Hopefully it'll fall into place without overlapping one of the other matches on the schedule.

 

[ltrain7281]

Wall- I like your idea of the divisions, this is one of my biggest concerns is how to divide the shooters up based on their equipment and not have a bunch of different divisions like what is starting to happen in USPSA. Now you guys bare with me as I have never shot any 3 gun and do not know the divisions that they recognize. Please look at these divisions below and see if these are what you talking about above.

Open- is the simple one, what ever you want on the rifle and pistol
Tac Optics- Rifle has scope or red dot as only sights no secondary sights allowed on rifle, pistol has iron sights?
Tac Irons- Rifle has iron sights and pistol has iron sights?

Now with these three divisions I doubt that there are any mag restrictions in open division but what about the Tac Ops and Tac Irons? Are there any mag restrictions (length or mag capacity) on the rifle or pistols in these divisions?

Gunnut23- I see what your saying with the shotgun and that it doesn't have to be so invasive as 3gun but I would just rather keep it out of the match. No disrespect to anyone that enjoys the shotgun part of the matches but it is the biggest complaint that I have heard as to why people do not shoot 3gun.

Jesse and Poopgiggle- any idea if the matches you guys talked about above has some rules that I can get a copy of or a link to? I would like to look over these and see what they were doing.

 

[Burk Cornelius]

Loren, typically no mag restrictions in rifle or pistol

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[dennishoddy]

Shame its too far away from me, sounds like a fun match in the making. I agree with Gunnut 23. I think 3 gun would have apealed to the masses more had the shotgun portion not required such exotic mods, and the amount of training time to excel at loading and accessory equipment costs.

The level of skill the advanced 3gun shotgun shooters has obtained is impressive, but it leaves out the average recreational shooter that just wants to come to the range and try something different with his standard off the shelf shotgun.

Flame suit on, fire away.

 

[drmitchgibson]

Power factor scoring, it rewards both speed and accuracy. 30-round mags only with NO coupling, in light of competitive equity. AR mag pouches aren't expensive, and you get free back pockets with every pair of pants.

In small bays, <100 yards, scopes and dots should be in the same division, and irons in it's own division. I would argue that irons is irons, and dots are scopes until you get past 100 yards. I think this makes it difficult to have competitive equity when you add pistols into the mix to decide on divisions. It makes iron-sighted rifles inherently less appealing to all but the well-practiced in their use. What you end up with is pistol sighting devices dictating divisions.

 

[jtischauser]

Wall- I like your idea of the divisions, this is one of my biggest concerns is how to divide the shooters up based on their equipment and not have a bunch of different divisions like what is starting to happen in USPSA. Now you guys bare with me as I have never shot any 3 gun and do not know the divisions that they recognize. Please look at these divisions below and see if these are what you talking about above.

Open- is the simple one, what ever you want on the rifle and pistol
Tac Optics- Rifle has scope or red dot as only sights no secondary sights allowed on rifle, pistol has iron sights?
Tac Irons- Rifle has iron sights and pistol has iron sights?

Now with these three divisions I doubt that there are any mag restrictions in open division but what about the Tac Ops and Tac Irons? Are there any mag restrictions (length or mag capacity) on the rifle or pistols in these divisions?

Gunnut23- I see what your saying with the shotgun and that it doesn't have to be so invasive as 3gun but I would just rather keep it out of the match. No disrespect to anyone that enjoys the shotgun part of the matches but it is the biggest complaint that I have heard as to why people do not shoot 3gun.

Jesse and Poopgiggle- any idea if the matches you guys talked about above has some rules that I can get a copy of or a link to? I would like to look over these and see what they were doing.

I think the US Carbine Association went under last year. I can't find the website only their facebook that hasn't had an update since June 2015.

Oil Capital uses some out of date yahoo group for their stuff. I couldn't find their rules either. It was basically idpa scoring are rules with two guns.

 

[jtischauser]

Power factor scoring, it rewards both speed and accuracy. 30-round mags only with NO coupling, in light of competitive equity. AR mag pouches aren't expensive, and you get free back pockets with every pair of pants.

In small bays, <100 yards, scopes and dots should be in the same division, and irons in it's own division. I would argue that irons is irons, and dots are scopes until you get past 100 yards. I think this makes it difficult to have competitive equity when you add pistols into the mix to decide on divisions. It makes iron-sighted rifles inherently less appealing to all but the well-practiced in their use. What you end up with is pistol sighting devices dictating divisions.

Why limit mag capacity? If you want to test shooters ability to reload just make mandatory and write it into the stage brief.

I'd move your <100 yards to <50 yards. At 50 yards I'm adding magnification if i got it. I agree on irons. Nobody runs those things anymore.

Is the match going to have targets past 50 yards? If not you can get away with two divisions, Open & Practical. Use the same ruleset as any 3-gun match would in regards to equipment. 3-gun nations rules for open and practical divisions are pretty much the best out there.

If you are planning to shoot past 50 yards then add the Factory division. Use the same rules as 3GN Factory which limits mag capacity to 30 in the rifle and 15 in the pistol and you can run a red dot or iron sights on the rifle.

 

[irons_shooter]

If you are planning to shoot past 50 yards then add the Factory division. Use the same rules as 3GN Factory which limits mag capacity to 30 in the rifle and 15 in the pistol and you can run a red dot or iron sights on the rifle.

I never understood the pistol mag capacity rule in Factory. No competition worthy guns, even in a factory configuration, come with 15-round magazines. With irons or 1x, some would say Factory is already at a disadvantage, biggest may being only to have a shotgun capable of holding 8 in a magazine, why don't they just use the standard 140mm magazine length, especially since the majority of competitors are using S_I guns? <rant mode off>

 

[Wall]

140mm pistol mags for TI & TO. 170mm pistol mags for open. Fill 'em up. Rifle....no drums for TI & TO, but ok for open.

Red dot & scope are not the same. That's why I was saying magnified & non-magnified rifle to separate the divisions. You're not going to get but 2 or 3 people running actual irons.

 

[jtischauser]

I never understood the pistol mag capacity rule in Factory. No competition worthy guns, even in a factory configuration, come with 15-round magazines. With irons or 1x, some would say Factory is already at a disadvantage, biggest may being only to have a shotgun capable of holding 8 in a magazine, why don't they just use the standard 140mm magazine length, especially since the majority of competitors are using S_I guns? <rant mode off>

Glocks, MP, & xdm in .40 hold 15 from the factory and their 9mm counterparts hold 17-18. I'm guessing that's why they chose 15 for a factory/production type division as compared to only 10 in USPSA production division. Heck even production/carry optics bumped it up to 15. In comparison no factory production guns come with a 140mm mag. Even STI guns only come with a 126mm don't they?