OK...you're carrying and there's an active shooter,

Mike A1

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If the shooter, his actions, and activity is not within your immediate range of vision/presence for an immediate reactive response to an articulable threat of great bodily harm or death to You and/or your family/loved ones, Round up & Move w/family members to safety = exit > car> then keep going. Rule One of Gunfights is: Don't Be There! Sounds Harsh, but you do not need to go looking for trouble. Your responsibility is to your family and yourself. Your family depends on you. Just sending them in the direction of an exit means you are assuming that they will be safe if they get out. What if there are accomplices covering the exits/parking lot? If you are fortunate enough to get your family to real safety and then return to engage, then what? Who/What actually is the threat? Where is it and Who are you looking for? You may catch a bullet before you are able to recognize/identify a threat. If you are walking around with a pistol in your hand, then you are SAS (no, that doesn't stand for Special Air Service). If you got everyone loaded in the car, got your uber-kewel "truck gun" (carbine/shotgun/PCC - & chest rig/PC), got the fam on the road and headed back to the fray, then you really are SAS. The Nike, if not Firestone Defense is your best option. Remember that distance is your friend. Bullets, Blood, and resultant Police, Lawyers, and Money are not in your best interests unless there is NO choice. Even the people you save will Sue You- as well as the family of any dirtbag you have to shoot - as well as anyone they planted or injured, or got injured fleeing - since it will somehow now be your fault, too.
Good advice, Fight or flight.

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dennishoddy

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If the shooter, his actions, and activity is not within your immediate range of vision/presence for an immediate reactive response to an articulable threat of great bodily harm or death to You and/or your family/loved ones, Round up & Move w/family members to safety = exit > car> then keep going. Rule One of Gunfights is: Don't Be There! Sounds Harsh, but you do not need to go looking for trouble. Your responsibility is to your family and yourself. Your family depends on you. Just sending them in the direction of an exit means you are assuming that they will be safe if they get out. What if there are accomplices covering the exits/parking lot? If you are fortunate enough to get your family to real safety and then return to engage, then what? Who/What actually is the threat? Where is it and Who are you looking for? You may catch a bullet before you are able to recognize/identify a threat. If you are walking around with a pistol in your hand, then you are SAS (no, that doesn't stand for Special Air Service). If you got everyone loaded in the car, got your uber-kewel "truck gun" (carbine/shotgun/PCC - & chest rig/PC), got the fam on the road and headed back to the fray, then you really are SAS. The Nike, if not Firestone Defense is your best option. Remember that distance is your friend. Bullets, Blood, and resultant Police, Lawyers, and Money are not in your best interests unless there is NO choice. Even the people you save will Sue You- as well as the family of any dirtbag you have to shoot - as well as anyone they planted or injured, or got injured fleeing - since it will somehow now be your fault, too.
There are some states like Oklahoma, that have provisions in law saying you can't be sued in civil court if you have a good shoot, The laws are very gun friendly in Oklahoma with the Castle doctrine. You do not have to retreat, you can engage to defend another or defend yourself against a disparity of force (some big thug wanting to punch you out as an old man).
It's happened countless times across Oregon: People get so angry they punch one another in the face. Most often those injuries lead to black eyes, bloody noses and bruised consciences.


Occasionally, they lead to death.


One punch can kill.


Again and again, readers voice shock with each case that makes headlines.


"They shouldn't express surprise," said state medical examiner Dr. Karen Gunson. "It's uncommon, but not rare."



Ten days ago, 61-year-old motocross enthusiast Anthony Mancuso died after he was decked by another man and fell, striking the back of his head on pavement at Portland International Raceway, police say. Michael T. Taylor, 50, was originally arrested on a fourth-degree assault charge, but that was dismissed pending a grand jury review that could result in homicide charges.
Among other such Portland-area deaths:

In 2010, Clackamas County sheriff's deputies arrived at Boone's Junction Pizza and Pub in Wilsonville to find a 50-year-old man lying dead in the parking lot. Lewis Allen Wilson apparently was the victim of a bar fight that spun out of control, and he died from a blow to the head. No suspect was charged.
Just in Portland, one city across the US.

The Castle Doctrine extends to your vehicle in Oklahoma. Someone tries to carjack you, they can be taken out legally.
Once again, when the LEO arrive, say only, this person tried to kill me and I had to defend my self and then STFU. Expect to go to jail and/or be interrogated for hours until they can get the full story.
 

Skyviking

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Everyone who is not a sheep needs to be very familiar with the self-defense laws of the state/locality in which they live, work, commute through, and visit/vacation - especially if they go about armed with whatever weapon(s) are legally permissible in said jurisdictions. Disparity of Force is also a concept that one should be aware of. The Mind is your primary weapon, and The Left and Statists would prefer that you not use or have it, either.
 

dennishoddy

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Everyone who is not a sheep needs to be very familiar with the self-defense laws of the state/locality in which they live, work, commute through, and visit/vacation - especially if they go about armed with whatever weapon(s) are legally permissible in said jurisdictions. Disparity of Force is also a concept that one should be aware of. The Mind is your primary weapon, and The Left and Statists would prefer that you not use or have it, either.
We travel the country in our RV after retiring. We have to stay fully aware of the local firearm regulations.
 

Mike A1

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The Mind is your primary weapon, and The Left and Statists would prefer that you not use or have it, either.
There are 10 God given Commandments, written in Stone. In stone. ;)
There are NO man made rules!!! Why do I say that?
Rules are meant to be bent or broken. OK that's it you see there are really NO rules, Really. :oops:

Imagine growing up behind a 12' chain link fence topped off with Razor wire.
Outside the wire there were people, not always like me who understood that there really are NO rules.
They taught me so much about the REAL world when I dug under that US Army fence to be with them .

Just watch the Blacks & Hispanics around you when your out and about, they are very alert of their surroundings.
Watch the White people walking around with their heads in/up their devices. Need I say more, Be observant at all times.

The second you aim you weapon at another human you don't have time to make your mind up , only to act very fast.

Semper Fi./ Be prepared.
 

Skyviking

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As I have said before, if you are carrying a weapon, you must have already firmly decided beforehand under what circumstances will you draw your weapon and use it. your Mind is your greatest weapon. You won't rise to the occasion. You will default to your level of training.
 

BobT

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My first priority is to get my loved ones to safety. I carry all day every day, what I carry depends on where I am. I live in a small town with very little crime so if I don't plan to leave town I usually carry my KelTec P3AT. If I have to go somewhere out of the area my selection of weapon could change. I am competent with every defensive weapon I carry. I maintain situational awareness at all times and avoid any compromise in the safety of my family. On 01/31/21 at about 10:30 AM my oldest grandson James was working as a security supervisor for Metro Link in St. Louis MO when he was murdered in cold blood by a worthless scumbag who has yet to go to trial because he is "uncooperative". James was killed in front of multiple witnesses and nobody lifted a finger to help, he died alone on a cold sidewalk, a loving husband, father and USMC combat veteran who left behind a wife and 2 little girls while my tax dollars go to support his killer. After experiencing first hand the devastation that occurs in families after such a tragedy I can say without any doubt or hesitation that I will never hesitate to defend innocent life if I have the means to do so.
 

Mike A1

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I can say without any doubt or hesitation that I will never hesitate to defend innocent life if I have the means to do so.




If you were an armed bystander. What would you have done? Murder is Murder.
 

BobT

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If you were an armed bystander. What would you have done? Murder is Murder.


The clip you linked didn't tell the full story, I watched the full length video of this incident when it occurred. Had George complied instead of resisting it would have been a non-issue, while I don't condone the killing of George Floyd I do not consider him innocent either. George should have submitted to the arrest then had his day in court, in this instance the cops involved clearly used excessive force that resulted in homicide. Not at all the same as an active shooter situation, apples to oranges.
 

CECannonJr

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The clip you linked didn't tell the full story, I watched the full length video of this incident when it occurred. Had George complied instead of resisting it would have been a non-issue, while I don't condone the killing of George Floyd I do not consider him innocent either. George should have submitted to the arrest then had his day in court, in this instance the cops involved clearly used excessive force that resulted in homicide. Not at all the same as an active shooter situation, apples to oranges.
I think the question is; Would you have intervened to stop the cop? When Floyd complained of not being able to breathe, this quickly became an emergency.
 

Mike A1

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A situation where lethal force may be used to save a life as a man lay dying due to Murder! How far will you go?
I can say without any doubt or hesitation that I will never hesitate to defend innocent life if I have the means to do so.
 

barnetmill

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The clip you linked didn't tell the full story, I watched the full length video of this incident when it occurred. Had George complied instead of resisting it would have been a non-issue, while I don't condone the killing of George Floyd I do not consider him innocent either. George should have submitted to the arrest then had his day in court, in this instance the cops involved clearly used excessive force that resulted in homicide. Not at all the same as an active shooter situation, apples to oranges.
This is a bunny trail and would need another thread that likely has been already discussed. George Floyd was as high as a kite and was incapable of responding as ordered to. When officers approached him relative to passing a counterfeit $20, he swallowed his stash and within minutes was loosing coordination relative to posture, orientation, and verbal responses. Part of the court case was what was it that actually killed him. I think a 'fairer' jury might have given the full mixed cocktail of street drugs more weight than they did plus he had heart disease and sickle cells anemia. But a gang of cops with one applying pressure to his neck certainly played a role in his death.
In any mall shooting of an active shooter, again public perception can be important. Everything is a judgement call relative to drawing your gun in public. I am not saying how I would react. One has to be looking 360 degrees to make sure you are not blind sided by the active shooter's partner or a cop or even another citizen thinking you are a bad guy. If you hit someone or if anyone hits some innocent with a stray round, you may be found civilly or criminally responsible.
 

BobT

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I think the question is; Would you have intervened to stop the cop? When Floyd complained of not being able to breathe, this quickly became an emergency.
I'm not going to shoot a cop, nor am I going to interfere with an arrest, also, if you can talk you can breathe, had I been there I might have said something and then again maybe not.
 

Mike A1

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As I have said before, if you are carrying a weapon, you must have already firmly decided beforehand under what circumstances will you draw your weapon and use it. your Mind is your greatest weapon. You won't rise to the occasion. You will default to your level of training.
Your mind is your greatest weapon. :D

I'm not going to shoot a cop, nor am I going to interfere with an arrest, also, if you can talk you can breathe, had I been there I might have said something and then again maybe not.
How far will you go?
This was the question.
We all saw the GF made for TV drama & did our judging back then.
Which cop would you shoot first? All of them? Good luck brother, kiss your ass goodbye.
In the case of GF the Phone camera was more effective than a trauma weapon, their alive & behind bars.

Surely you have played out all the possible scenarios & came to the realization, nothing in life comes close to those possible scenarios. Murfs Law.
I read back through this thread & it's verry interesting we covered a bunch.

Many times the Heros & the Husbands were discussed & how important it was to get your friends & Family out of harms way first.
Most of us are not paid to run towards the gunfire anymore & being the hero & getting killed will only hurt your family forever.

Believe in yourself & all your training will pay off. You will be ready when the time comes. Remember No Rules. ;)
 

dennishoddy

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As I have said before, if you are carrying a weapon, you must have already firmly decided beforehand under what circumstances will you draw your weapon and use it. your Mind is your greatest weapon. You won't rise to the occasion. You will default to your level of training.
Training and also the fact you may have family with you that requires their safety be first priority.
Every situation is fluid in what decisions need to be made.
 

tomrkba

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My brother in law , in Colorado is an elder in his church . His volunteer job at church is to sit in his truck during service with a long gun , cell phone by his side , and he listens to the service on his radio . They're out in the country and help is at least 30 minutes out . Plus quite a few members are armed . They actually have a plan .

Yet, we are not allowed to guard our schools…
 

barnetmill

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I'm not going to shoot a cop, nor am I going to interfere with an arrest, also, if you can talk you can breathe, had I been there I might have said something and then again maybe not.
I do not remember what caused of death the legal system decided on. But if you are full drugs with heart disease and have three people siting on you with a forth with knee on your neck, hey just what could go wrong with that.
Testimony at the trial
CNN — https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/09/us/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-day-10/index.html

George Floyd's heart disease and use of fentanyl were contributing factors to his death, but they were not the direct cause, the medical examiner who performed his autopsy testified on Friday in the trial of former police officer Derek Chauvin.
Hennepin County Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Andrew Baker ruled Floyd's death last May a homicide and identified the cause as "cardiopulmonary arrest" that occurred during "law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression" – all findings he stood by in court on Friday.
Asked about the autopsy and Floyd's death certificate, Baker described the "top line of the cause of death" as "what you think is the most important thing that precipitated the death."
"Other things that you think played a role in the death but were not direct causes get relegated to what's known as the 'other significant conditions' part of the death certificate," he said. "For example, you know, Mr. Floyd's use of fentanyl did not cause the subdual or neck restraint. His heart disease did not cause the subdual or the neck restraint."
Floyd had hypertensive heart disease, Baker said, "meaning his heart weighed more than it should." This meant Floyd's heart needed more oxygen than a normal heart and was "limited in its ability" to provide more oxygen when there was a demand for it.
In the midst of an altercation and being held to the ground, adrenaline would pour into the body, Baker said, making the heart beat faster.

"In my opinion, the law enforcement subdual, restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr. Floyd could take by virtue of those heart conditions," he said.
Chauvin's defense attorney, Eric Nelson, has argued that Floyd died as a result of drugs and preexisting health conditions. And under cross examination, Baker said he believed those factors played a role.
"So in your opinion," Nelson asked, "both the heart disease as well as the history of hypertension and the drugs that were in his system played a role in Mr. Floyd's death?"
"In my opinion, yes," Baker said.
But Baker reiterated he stood by the cause of death he wrote on Floyd's death certificate and his finding Floyd's death was a homicide, which to a medical examiner means his death was caused by another person and does not necessarily indicate guilt.
"Yes, I would still classify it as homicide today," he said.
 

Bob Lee

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Yet, we are not allowed to guard our schools…
Unfortunately most churches regardless of denomination have very strict anti gun rules. I do not understand this, and I'd like a logical answer as to why. Self preservation is the highest priority in any species, if not it darn well oughta be. Jesus told the disciples to arm themselves, I can think of absolutely no greater example of being armed today than that. Self defense is a God given right. Personally I believe that the Commandment though shall not kill has been changed from though shall not murder. Something may have been lost in translation. I find it disgusting that pious clowns point to this commandment, and say see it says so here. Yeah well there are 9 other COMMANDMENTS besides that one. Why don't you bring those up? Oh yeah it doesn't fit your stinkin' agenda. If you're going to pick one ya better take 'em all because they come as a complete law.
 
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