OK...you're carrying and there's an active shooter,

[CECannonJr]

Unfortunately most churches regardless of denomination have very strict anti gun rules. I do not understand this, and I'd like a logical answer as to why. Self preservation is the highest priority in any species, if not it darn well oughta be. Jesus told the disciples to arm themselves, I can think of absolutely no greater example of being armed today than that. Self defense is a God given right. Personally I believe that the Commandment though shall not kill has been changed from though shall not murder. Something may have been lost in translation. I find it disgusting that pious clowns point to this commandment, and say see it says so here. Yeah well there are 9 other COMMANDMENTS besides that one. Why don't you bring those up? Oh yeah it doesn't fit your stinkin' agenda. If you're going to pick one ya better take 'em all because they come as a complete law.

Luke 22:36 "Let the one whom has no sword sell his cloak and buy one," - Jesus

I think 'Thou shalt not kill' does not mean a man doesn't have the right to prevent himself or his family from being harmed.

 

[barnetmill]

Unfortunately most churches regardless of denomination have very strict anti gun rules. I do not understand this, and I'd like a logical answer as to why. Self preservation is the highest priority in any species, if not it darn well oughta be. Jesus told the disciples to arm themselves, I can think of absolutely no greater example of being armed today than that. Self defense is a God given right. Personally I believe that the Commandment though shall not kill has been changed from though shall not murder. Something may have been lost in translation. I find it disgusting that pious clowns point to this commandment, and say see it says so here. Yeah well there are 9 other COMMANDMENTS besides that one. Why don't you bring those up? Oh yeah it doesn't fit your stinkin' agenda. If you're going to pick one ya better take 'em all because they come as a complete law.

Quite a few of the churches in my locale to have armed guards. I do not know how many, this is northwest florida and we are a mostly protestant area

 

[barnetmill]

Luke 22:36 "Let the one whom has no sword sell his cloak and buy one," - Jesus

I think 'Thou shalt not kill' does not mean a man doesn't have the right to prevent himself or his family from being harmed.

As already stated it is thou shalt not murder is the correct translation.

 

[dennishoddy]

I do not remember what caused of death the legal system decided on. But if you are full drugs with heart disease and have three people siting on you with a forth with knee on your neck, hey just what could go wrong with that.
Testimony at the trial
CNN — https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/09/us/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-day-10/index.html

George Floyd's heart disease and use of fentanyl were contributing factors to his death, but they were not the direct cause, the medical examiner who performed his autopsy testified on Friday in the trial of former police officer Derek Chauvin.
Hennepin County Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Andrew Baker ruled Floyd's death last May a homicide and identified the cause as "cardiopulmonary arrest" that occurred during "law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression" – all findings he stood by in court on Friday.
Asked about the autopsy and Floyd's death certificate, Baker described the "top line of the cause of death" as "what you think is the most important thing that precipitated the death."
"Other things that you think played a role in the death but were not direct causes get relegated to what's known as the 'other significant conditions' part of the death certificate," he said. "For example, you know, Mr. Floyd's use of fentanyl did not cause the subdual or neck restraint. His heart disease did not cause the subdual or the neck restraint."
Floyd had hypertensive heart disease, Baker said, "meaning his heart weighed more than it should." This meant Floyd's heart needed more oxygen than a normal heart and was "limited in its ability" to provide more oxygen when there was a demand for it.
In the midst of an altercation and being held to the ground, adrenaline would pour into the body, Baker said, making the heart beat faster.

"In my opinion, the law enforcement subdual, restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr. Floyd could take by virtue of those heart conditions," he said.
Chauvin's defense attorney, Eric Nelson, has argued that Floyd died as a result of drugs and preexisting health conditions. And under cross examination, Baker said he believed those factors played a role.
"So in your opinion," Nelson asked, "both the heart disease as well as the history of hypertension and the drugs that were in his system played a role in Mr. Floyd's death?"
"In my opinion, yes," Baker said.
But Baker reiterated he stood by the cause of death he wrote on Floyd's death certificate and his finding Floyd's death was a homicide, which to a medical examiner means his death was caused by another person and does not necessarily indicate guilt.
"Yes, I would still classify it as homicide today," he said.

That was a classic case of police abuse. The courts have agree'd.

 

[dennishoddy]

In most locales a private school can be guarded, especially a church school with the cooperation of the staff that run it.

We have public schools in Oklahoma with armed teachers. It's at the discretion of the school board. Ours is in favor. I've personally trained two. One a principal of a grade school and the other a teacher of a middle school. Both are sisters, conservative in politics and do not want to be victims of a school shooting.
They are not going to go school shooter hunting should that situation arise. They are to lock down and defend their room. I remind them every couple of months they need to meet at the range and we continue to reinforce the training which basically consists of firearm safety, recognizing a threat and becoming more familiar with their firearm.
I have a friend that is a SWAT trainer for different agencies. He conducts school shooter training for officers. I get to be the "unknown shooter" in the scenarios he puts on. I'm one of the hostages. That is until they do the breach drill from an outside shooter, taking them down. Then I take my concealed simunition pistol out and shoot a couple of the officers with the non-lethal training ammo while they are congratulating themselves.
The trainer then really launches into a basic training drill sergeant dressing down that would make any drill sergeant proud.

 

[barnetmill]

That was a classic case of police abuse. The courts have agree'd.

i just quoted what went on in the court and I do not know exactly what G. Floyd died of and I suspect neither did the medical examiner. I still think there was doubt as to the actual cause of death. One factor for doubt has to do with of the drugs recovered from Floyd's remains when tested by chromatography. Toxicology for one isomer (alternative form) of a drug may not be the same as what isomer was observed for lab rats or what ever is used for testing. The recovered or extracted drugs were street drugs and there is really no way to know just how lethal they where and along with Floyd's medical conditions and have 4 men siting on him with one using his knee on the neck.
Court testimony
You want to keep your job and not get the BLM at your door? Well give them what they want. What Chauvin did was ok according the guideline in that department and so I would have also gone after the police chief that happened to be black and other officials. Offering up one most unwise cop as a scapegoat is what was chosen. One never does something like that with cameras going. And then to have the prisoner die, a really bad choice for sure. I doubt that he survives prison.

 

[Buck Buck]

good question/scenario....one that unfortunately has the propensity to actually occur.....

For me....well, some know, but I'm LE and a SWAT Team Lead and combat veteran.....Sooooo....move to contact....always. If family is with me, identify a quick exit and move them towards it, then go engage the threat.

For educational purposes....the previous response to an active shooter situation (pre-Columbine) was to establish a perimeter, call in SQqqWAT, coordinate an entry OR attempt to make contact with the shooter. Columbine taught us that this does not work. The longer an active shooter is left "free", the more lives are lost.

Fast forward to today's protocol's.....active shooter situation....you go. If it's you....you go alone....if you have support nearby/enroute (seconds out), then assemble a small fire team, otherwise....it's you. The premise is to find and engage the shooter to change his/her behavior and focus on YOU and not on killing innocents. You may not be able to engage him/her with firepower...but it has been shown that many commit suicide (effectively ending the threat), give up (ending the threat), or are killed by LE (again...ending the threat). Again...the current protocols (at least that I'm trained in) is to get in there and find/engage the threat, change their behavior to focus on YOU. If you take rounds and go down...well...part of the job....hopefully you are trained well and train often enough to not let this happen.

So....for me....move to contact....

Thank you for your service and your great advice & comments !

I was fortunate enough to be included in an Orange County (CA) Sheriff's presentation of a briefing on San Bernardino County's mass shooting incident in 2015 at a Health Dept Christmas party of all things !! 14 dead & 22 seriously injured

They included what those being attacked could do - 1st attempt escape safely, with as many others as possible; second, isolate yourselves from shooter in an area you can secure, lock doors or place some furniture up against a door, wrap door handles with phone cords, power or extension cords (or?). Arm Everyone with Something in the room, i.e. a coat rack, A telephone or the phone handset handset, the phone cord itself, a trash can, or ANY thing defensive or offensive that you could use. Prepare to overwhelmingly attack, if they gain entry, to subdue, or knock unconscious, and then tie up with phone cords, etc.
Do NOT just sit still and become an "easy" target - MOVE !

The lesson learned for law enforcement was to engage immediately to reduce the death toll, that will climb with every second of delay ! It really can become the moment that no greater love is shown - but that a man lay down his life for another. John 15:13.

This is the real reason for Christmas. Jesus.came to live among us, and die in our place, for our sins, that separate us eternally from a holy and righteous God who loves us and was willing to 'post our bail' and 'serve our punishment' - but who also gives us free will to decide to believe the evidence and follow Jesus, or Not believe. WITH God - All things are possible. Matt 19:26

Engage the evil enemy with God. Fear Not.
God's Love, and Peace to All !

 

[Bill O’Rights]

Umm, … Is "curl up in the fetal position and suck my thumb" not an answer?


More seriously: No two situations are exactly alike. As a minimum, the participants in different incidents, differ in innumerable ways. What works in one situation, might not work in another. What might work for me, might not work for you.

No one else can tell you: "You should do this. You should do that.", except in hindsight.

Your best bet is to train and give it as much forethought as practicable, before it happens. Know your capabilities and limitations, honestly. (For examples, are you 35 or 75? Fit or not? Well trained, kinda trained or not trained?)

And if it does happen, engage your mind and instincts first, and don't overthink it.

My 2 cts, based on experience and observation.

 

[pistolgrips]

Really big broad brush you use in your statement no problem, just don't over think it.
Was a long time after I became a Civilian for the first time, I did not carry a gun, I said a gun.
You must know yourself very well before you decide to carry a gun. Some times you need to detune
& learn to understand civil society. After years of training I am just like the rest of you now Plumb Krazy LOL.

You hear a lot about muscle memory & how important it is.
Yet truth be known, there is nothing more dangerous than a scared man or woman with a Shotgun & their finger on your future or not.



In War everything behind your enemy is Enemy, in most cases that is. On a Civilian street that's not the case just how many &
what type weapon does the Target have? I have thought of, if you look like an Old fart well. Why not fake a heart attack then
shoot him in the Bung Hole from a good upward shot or 2 .

Bob my first rule is Don't Die! Not until the target is down & dead.
My Father taught me to read, & how to read people & groups of people. Enter every situation with the thought you may need to fight something, Animal or Man does not matter. Semper Fi, be prepared all the time everywhere.

In any case it is The Element of Surprise that wins so, Play scared until you do some recon for others then surprise shots that count until you have the target
down & out! The toughest guy I ever knew had Tacicardia when the fire fight first began. Let's just say Moose was real fast to get his S- Together & fight
like a Banchee from hell from then on.

Gun shots real close inside can give you the big pucker no cure for that save some real anger aimed at the target.

Just my 0.1 cents worth.

 

[Bill O’Rights]

Yes, it's a broad brush because I'm not able to visualize, much less describe in a few paragraphs, all the possible scenarios and permutations. And I'm not high on presumption. And, as you know, details matter.

I did not intend to suggest "no problem". If I had so intended, I would have used those words or similar words.

So please let me say it more succinctly: train, know your limitations, engage your mind first but don't have a long debate with yourself (Don't dither.) and then commit to a course of action, trusting your instincts.

But your experience is certainly valid, and I wouldn't doubt it for a minute. There's more than one way to skin a cat… and to win a fight or survive a tough situation.

So you think about it and do it your way and I'll think and do my way. Odds are neither of us will be wrong.

And if we should both be in the same incident, I'd be mighty grateful if you (and that goes for prolly most on this forum) were there to back me up, and vice versa.

My 2 cts. (recounted)

But I think you should bump yours up to 10 cts, at least.

 

[BIGDAVE101]

By myself...move to contact.
Family/Friend along...they become priority #1...and if the scenario plays out where Fam can be sent thru an exit...back to move to contact. I don't think I could deal with myself turning my back on the helpless. And I agree with Babboonbobo...nobody sings our death song!

use friend as shield.... get new friend....

 

[Bob Lee]

Very well said. Thank you.

 

[Buck Buck]

use friend as shield.... get new friend....

Ha ha - I hope !
May I suggest you purchase some body armor?
In the long run, it's both Cheaper & Better than losing a good friend. And mentally healthier too. Ask me how I know...

& remember to pray for the blessing of Safety for ALL of us! (Prayer was good enough for George Washington AND Jesus Christ, the very Son of God - two really good examples of people who stayed 'prayed up' !)

Liberty and Divine Protection to all who love Freedom & Righteousness !

 

[Trooper343]

All depends on situation . Where are you , are there people running around , what weapon do you have ? What's your skill set like ? Can you make a clean shot while your adrenaline is pumped to an all time high ? I mainly worry while we're at church . Facing forward , back to the door . I told my wife , if it ever happens , hit the deck and roll under a pew . I'll take cover the best I can and see if I can get a clean shot . Awareness of your surroundings is paramount . I pray that if this ever happens I have the wisdom and skill to handle it the right way .

Our church has a security team that are spread throughout the church sanctuary, each with a specific field of fire. This way all the church is covered and we are not shooting each other. Church members have been instructed to go to the floor or lay down on the pew. Lock all the church doors except for two to limit entry.

 

[Buck Buck]

Our church has a security team that are spread throughout the church sanctuary, each with a specific field of fire. This way all the church is covered and we are not shooting each other. Church members have been instructed to go to the floor or lay down on the pew. Lock all the church doors except for two to limit entry.

Congrats on a team that thinks and prepares for Active Shooters. Our team also gathers before services with ushers and greeters, and prays for the service and everyone's safety, and wisdom if the need arises. As a plus, you meet new team members from all 3 face to face...

Does this require a high level of situation awareness for the entire service for whole team?

I'm also curious about the 2 points of entry /exit ?
Does Children's ministries secure inside ? If so, do doors automatically lock, and are room walls more than just drywall?

Just asking - I know of at least 1 large congregation in California that had electric carts patrol outside perimeters and parking structures, with shotguns & some balance of concealment, access and safety...

 

[BIGDAVE101]

Ha ha - I hope !
May I suggest you purchase some body armor?
In the long run, it's both Cheaper & Better than losing a good friend. And mentally healthier too. Ask me how I know...

& remember to pray for the blessing of Safety for ALL of us! (Prayer was good enough for George Washington AND Jesus Christ, the very Son of God - two really good examples of people who stayed 'prayed up' !)

Liberty and Divine Protection to all who love Freedom & Righteousness !

2 tours in Iraq... but it was in jest... blessings

 

[Bob Lee]

2 tours in Iraq... but it was in jest... blessings

Thank you for your service.

 

[BIGDAVE101]

Thank you for your service.

thanks...miss it severely, every day...