Standing up for misuse of guns?

[benjamin-benjamin]

(just stick with me and read all the way through)
I work a lot with dogs and also work with the pit bull rescue. I (and other "bully breed" supporters) all agree that the govt has no right to come in and dictate if i can own a pit bull or any other type of dog (of course there is a lot more to this argument, but no reason to go into it). Also what everyone agrees upon is stronger regulations for people that use dogs "illegally", meaning dog fighting, puppy mills, mistreatment of dogs, etc.. Everyone understands that these people are only hurting the "cause", not helping (along with the fact it is morally wrong), so we are also the most vocal supporters of harsh penalties for people "don't handle dogs correctly". So i say of all that to say this.

I am shocked (and frankly discouraged) that not only is their no outcry when people misuse guns, but there is actually support for these people. Maybe it really is a race thing, maybe people really are so paranoid that they will defend anyone with a gun, i honestly don't know. So even if we throw out zimmerman, just lately

we have a guy shooting at a fleeing car because some teenagers egged his car and actually killing a 15 year old girl people saying things like "that is what they get for messing with someone else's property" and "of course it was gang related, there were multiple people in the car, so that makes it a gang, one less of them off the street"

we have a guy shooting and killing an unarmed teenager because their "thug music" was so loud and after killing him then gets out of his vehicle and shoots numerous times as the vehicle flees, and is not even charged with ANYTHING when it comes to the kid he killed (only charged with attempted murder for the other 3) and then writes a racist letter talking about how the court system is favorable to "blacks", you know the court system that never sends "blacks" to jail. and people are saying things like "well he shouldn't have confronted the guy, etc.."

i could go on and on about other very obvious cases, but i will stop here. Not saying i am reading or hearing these things from this forum, but i am shocked by what i read and hear elsewhere. I think it is funny that these same people if confronted the way the people killed were confronted they would have shot the other guy. The very people supporting people killing unarmed people, would have killed the person they are defending. If at a gas station and someone comes and confronts you and pulls out a gun, what would you do? The biggest issue is that the teenager was unarmed.....

I could go on and on, but i guess i am shocked that i feel like i am one of the only people or part of a very small minority that actually speaks up or feels like these people shouldn't be defended...I won't even get into the irony of people saying "all liberals are closed minded and will just argue anything to support their agenda"....

 

[Jonathan Waits]

I hear ya, it really bothers me when police officers engage in that behavior. Such as the case as that theater shooting in florida. I would think if you are properly trained, you are trained to have a cooler head. Unfortunately people fancy themselves as clint eastwood, cleaning up the streets. Some folks even look for the trouble, as is the case in a lot of road rage shootings.

 

[Josh Beauchamp]

Well said Benjamin. As gun owners we should be the ones pushing for punishment when someone misuses a firearm and abuses their 2nd Amendment rights. Jonathan I think you are right, some people seem to seek out trouble. I personally believe that as an armed citizen it is my duty and obligation to do everything in my power to avoid problems.

 

[Jennifer Herd Seymour]

We live in a day where everyone is scared to get involved, to stand up for what they believe, to put themselves out there, to offend someone. Most will not say anything about something like this abuse of guns for fear of repercussions from their statements. People will sit and watch as someone else is getting beaten and not intervene, so why would they say something about misuse of guns, or authority, or anything else? We really live in a nation of cowards if you think about it. We watch people verbally and physically abuse their children, coworkers, and strangers and don't want to "get involved". People will get on the internet (I am NOT referring to this site) and say hateful things behind a face of anonymity, but cannot handle a confrontation at work. I am a manager and have people come to me all the time wanting me to fix things that they "don't want to be involved in" or don't want to confront the other person face to face. I am more of an in your face kind of person. Not rude, but I will say if I have a problem with someone, to their face. No one stands up for their beliefs anymore and no one stands up for those that need it. Watch this experiment someone did on whether people would intervene or not:

http://youtu.be/EisZTB4ZQxY

I would probably end up punched, but I would have to intervene.

 

[StealthESW]

Interesting subject. I think we live in a society that is more chaotic with people that do get involved, usually at the wrong time or not at all. The thing is you never know if someone will help you or rob you. Oh, and there is the off chance you could get sued for your attempt to help or shot. So, most of us walk around in a bubble thinking that nothing is ever going to happen to us or thinking that everything is going to happen.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that we have no real idea what is happening or going on around us (outside of our bubble). All I know is what I would like to do and what actually happens after the fact.

If all this sounds confusing, it's supposed to. It's just this little thing we call life. Sometimes it lifts you up and sometimes it drops you to the ground. The trick is learning the skill to get through it without causing a load of trouble for other people. Some of us haven't quite got it down just yet like in the examples that Ben laid out.

So really, the only thing we can do is keep our minds right and remember to treat others how we want to be treated. JMHO.

 

[Corey]

I think it us same old stuff century after century there will always be a bully, always be watchers, those with strong opinions that talk to everyone but the source of the problem. Then there are leaders who aren't afraid to take action that eventually get underminded later on by the "politically correct" naysayers. I do think the problem with the work place is they are afraid of stepping on toes therefore allowing substandard work practices.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you Benjamin just saying there is a lot that goes on and in many of those cases no one is innocent but someone took action.
It all sounds simple to me if you want to be left alone don't throw eggs. If you don't want to go to jail don't shoot at people that throw eggs.

As a kid I remember my little brother Joe going in house crying
Dad said "Shone why did you hit Joe"
Shone said "because he called me a fag"
Joe admitted to saying that
Dad said "Joe if you don't want to get hit don't call anyone a fag" & went back in the house. Made sense to me then, & still makes sense

 

[Jefpainthorse]

When others " mis use" firearms and that mis use is reported in the media --- gun owners ( and groups ) usually end up in a rebuttle situation. In every case I can recall ... Bad behavior ends up as a battle over gun rights.

The press has gone from being the fourth estate, it's now a 5th column. People ( en mass) are gutless.

When was the last time anyone you know " called" anybody on their bad behavior?
Not too many years ago kids were as likely to get spanked by a neighbors as they were a parent.... Most folks today don't recognize bad behavior for what it is and we have regressed to a cult of child worshipers .

 

[StealthESW]

I wouldn't say "en mass people are gutless" unless you mean individual people all at their own homes as "the group". Not really sure what you ment by that statement. Because there was a mass of people in this country that stood for what they believed in and thus America was born. I do think that many of us in this country have become withdrawn from the things going on around us to some degree, possibly to our detriment.

I do agree that the media does appear to sensationalize stories and stretch the truth for ratings or whatever designs they have.

 

[threegungeezer]

It is impossible to make an informed statement about something if you do not know ALL the facts, so if you weren't there, you do not know what happened,hence it is best to remain silent than to make assumptions. I hope that if I ever have to use a weapon to defend myself, that the armchair quarterbacking will be kept to a minimum and the facts will be used to judge the case.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

I wouldn't say "en mass people are gutless" unless you mean individual people all at their own homes as "the group". Not really sure what you ment by that statement. Because there was a mass of people in this country that stood for what they believed in and thus America was born. I do think that many of us in this country have become withdrawn from the things going on around us to some degree, possibly to our detriment.

I do agree that the media does appear to sensationalize stories and stretch the truth for ratings or whatever designs they have.

47% of the American voters have voted for a guy who hired John Kerry, Hillary Clinton and Eric Holder -not to mention "uses a phone and ink pen" to re write the law of the land. At least 40% of the American people have no problem with that today. (source: your poll here). That's what I meant by that statement. By extention that kind of apathy is reflected in the daily activities of a gut- less culture.

At least Peirs Morgan got fired....

 

[mike cyrwus]

until these people that "misuse" guns are convicted of a crime in a court of law, its (not only) my position that they are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not a court of media.


So, until the court gets hold of them, I dont have a problem with opinions.

After the fact, i blame ignorance of laws and what laws really say. Its not racism, or redneckism, or any ism, just plain ol gnorance.
good topic Ben.

 

[StealthESW]

Innocent till proven guilty died with the advent of the news media. I was taught to not assume a person is guilty of wrong doing unless I see it with my own eyes or they have been properly convicted in an actual court of law, not the virtual one in the media.

I know I'm not going to get all the facts from the newspaper or daily news on the radio or TV. I just know that I am not going to assume anyone is guilty till all the facts are in, that burden lies with the legal system starting with law enforcement.

However, I also understand that there are people in the world that do not think like me and will believe what they see and hear in the media.

I can only choose what I do.

 

[poopgiggle]

Any debate that's gun-related is part of the urban-rural cultural divide IMO. All of the SYG media frenzies revolve around cases where a guy on the rural team, a white guy (or at least with a white-sounding name like Zimmerman) who likes guns, shoots someone on the urban team, a black person wearing a hoodie and/or listening to loud rap music. Since people are inherently tribal animals we tend to side with the guy on "our team" and we have a cognitive bias that makes us inclined to believe our team's story. The pit bull example is actually really apt here, since breed bans target the people who tend to favor those dog breeds as much as they target the breeds themselves; with the gun debate, it's as much about people who like guns as it is guns. I think the racial issue is a part of the larger urban-rural issue.

So I think that when these stories come out we divide up along our tribal lines without actually considering the real facts, or we view the facts through a lens that clouds our judgment.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

Any debate that's gun-related is part of the urban-rural cultural divide IMO. All of the SYG media frenzies revolve around cases where a guy on the rural team, a white guy (or at least with a white-sounding name like Zimmerman) who likes guns, shoots someone on the urban team, a black person wearing a hoodie and/or listening to loud rap music. Since people are inherently tribal animals we tend to side with the guy on "our team" and we have a cognitive bias that makes us inclined to believe our team's story. The pit bull example is actually really apt here, since breed bans target the people who tend to favor those dog breeds as much as they target the breeds themselves; with the gun debate, it's as much about people who like guns as it is guns. I think the racial issue is a part of the larger urban-rural issue.

So I think that when these stories come out we divide up along our tribal lines without actually considering the real facts, or we view the facts through a lens that clouds our judgment.

very well said, i guess the other issue is that people will say things like "i don't know all the facts, or innocent until proven guilty" (once again not referencing people on this site) when it comes to people that "misuse guns", but then if someone uses a gun "properly" (for lack of a better term) and the courts deem them guilty or they don't know all the facts they are quick to use that same example and explain how the court of law was wrong..... My point is everyone wants to post stories about "self defense" and how a gun saved someone, but never the opposite way. So basically the gun community as a whole just posts examples that support their argument and ignores everything else, while accusing "anti's" of doing the very thing they are doing!

for me personally i don't let the "court" determine everything for me, our justice system isn't set up for "justice" but who's lawyer can find the best loophole. I think OJ was guilty regardless of what court says and i think the guy that shot an unarmed teenager for playing "music too loud" isn't justifiable, even though the court chose not to charge him. So my personal opinions and moral code isn't left up to 12 jurors that may be swayed by a lawyer....

 

[Jeff T.]

very well said, i guess the other issue is that people will say things like "i don't know all the facts, or innocent until proven guilty" (once again not referencing people on this site) when it comes to people that "misuse guns", but then if someone uses a gun "properly" (for lack of a better term) and the courts deem them guilty or they don't know all the facts they are quick to use that same example and explain how the court of law was wrong..... My point is everyone wants to post stories about "self defense" and how a gun saved someone, but never the opposite way. So basically the gun community as a whole just posts examples that support their argument and ignores everything else, while accusing "anti's" of doing the very thing they are doing!

for me personally i don't let the "court" determine everything for me, our justice system isn't set up for "justice" but who's lawyer can find the best loophole. I think OJ was guilty regardless of what court says and i think the guy that shot an unarmed teenager for playing "music too loud" isn't justifiable, even though the court chose not to charge him. So my personal opinions and moral code isn't left up to 12 jurors that may be swayed by a lawyer....

Benjamin,
I agree, it appears to me that our society has lost their ability to determine the worth of a human life in some instances. Maybe from fear, or maybe from lack of being taught as children, or maybe from what they were taught as children.
That's called a conscience. It's a good thing to have.

con·science
/'känCH?ns/
noun
noun: conscience; plural noun: consciences
- an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

and it continues...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/13/houston-dad-fatally-shoots-teen-inside-daughters-room-report-says/

A Houston-area father fatally shot a 17-year-old boy who was inside his teen daughter's bedroom early Thursday morning, MyFoxHouston.com reported.
The father, who was not identified, was notified by one of his children that there was someone in his 16-year-old daughter's room, the report said. He reportedly found his daughter in bed with the teen.
The confrontation occurred around 2:20 a.m. The father had a gun and asked the teen to identify himself, police said, according to the report. His daughter reportedly told her father that she did not know the teen and that the two were not in bed.
The father said he told the teen not to move, but reportedly saw the teen reach for something, at which point police say the father opened fire. The teen did not have a gun. His daughter later confessed that she did indeed know the teen, the report said.
"You just feel terrible for the families," one neighbor told the station. "You just kind of reflect on both of these families’ lives have changed forever."
The father was taken by ambulance from the home for treatment of an unrelated medical situation. So far no arrests have been made, but detectives told the station that they are going to refer the case to a grand jury.

 

[grayokc]

I know, we have to DO something about this!

A suspected drunken driver fleeing police crashed through barricades at the South By Southwest festival in Austin, slamming into a crowd outside a nightclub and killing a woman on a moped and a bike rider early Thursday, police said.
Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo said the motorist plowed into people gathered in front of an emptying nightclub around 12:30 a.m., injuring 25 people, five critically. He eventually crashed and tried to make a getaway on foot. A police officer shocked him with a stun gun and took him into custody, Acevedo said at a news conference.
MyFoxAustin.com reported

that 21-year-old Rashsad Charjuan Owens of Killeen, Texas, faces two counts of capital murder and multiple counts of aggravated assault with a vehicle. He was treated for minor injuries and turned over to police, said Dr. Christopher Ziebell, the emergency department director at the University Medical Center-Brackenridge.
Two people were in critical condition Thursday morning with life-threatening head injuries and three patients remain in serious condition, he added. A total of eight people remain hospitalized.
"The most critical patients I have a great deal of concern for," Ziebell said. "We are going to do our best for them, but these are some of the worst injuries that we see and not everybody with these kinds of injuries is going to survive."
The annual music, film and interactive conference draws tens of thousands to Austin each year, and the toll could have been much higher. The street had been packed with revelers just minutes earlier, but officials had cleared the area to create a fire lane. Police urged the organizers to go forward with the event.
Police said at a press conference Thursday morning that the emergency response was swift and the most critical patients were removed about 15 minutes after the incident.
"We had a large crowd," Acevedo said at a 2:30 a.m. news conference. "I just thank God that a lot of the folks had already been pushed on the sidewalk or this could have been a lot worse."
Acevedo asked witnesses and those who may have taken video to contact police rather than post it on the Internet. He did not release the names of the victims.
Austin police shut off traffic to about a square mile of downtown for five days during the festival, turning normally busy roads into a large pedestrian mall to help festivalgoers reach dozens of music venues.
The driver rammed through barricades set up on Red River Street on the northeast edge of the entertainment district between an apartment building and The Mohawk nightclub, where multiple acts were to perform Wednesday night. The bands X and TEEN had just wrapped up, and rapper Tyler the Creator was scheduled to perform at 1 a.m.
Scott Jakota, a musician from Indiana in town to play SXSW, told the Austin American-Statesman he was one of the first people hit outside The Mohawk. He said the driver "gunned" the car.
"I was thrown up in the sky," Jakota said.
Overlooking the street, 28-year-old Ally Hulton from Los Angeles, was on a balcony of her friend's apartment when she saw the car driving "at full speed" before hitting someone.
"About 10 bodies went flying," Hulton told the newspaper.
Police said the incident started when an officer on a drunken-driving patrol tried to stop the silver Toyota sedan at a gas station a few blocks away. The car took off, weaving between parked cars then driving at high speed the wrong way down a one-way street.
Upon turning right on Red River Street, the vehicle crashed through a barricade and narrowly missed a police officer. After hitting pedestrians in front of The Mohawk, the driver hit and killed the two people on the moped and hit a taxi cab before finally crashing.
A crime scene unit was still at the scene investigating the crash Thursday.
Acevedo said there were no plans to change safety protocols at the festival due to the accident.
"We do these events very well, but you cannot stop a person who rather than face drunk driving charges decides to speed at a high rate of speed, go around a uniformed officer forcing him to run out of the way, then at a high rate of speed show total disregard for the sanctity of human life," Acevedo said.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

I know, we have to DO something about this!

A suspected drunken driver fleeing police crashed through barricades at the South By Southwest festival in Austin, slamming into a crowd outside a nightclub and killing a woman on a moped and a bike rider early Thursday, police said.
Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo said the motorist plowed into people gathered in front of an emptying nightclub around 12:30 a.m., injuring 25 people, five critically. He eventually crashed and tried to make a getaway on foot. A police officer shocked him with a stun gun and took him into custody, Acevedo said at a news conference.
MyFoxAustin.com reported

that 21-year-old Rashsad Charjuan Owens of Killeen, Texas, faces two counts of capital murder and multiple counts of aggravated assault with a vehicle. He was treated for minor injuries and turned over to police, said Dr. Christopher Ziebell, the emergency department director at the University Medical Center-Brackenridge.
Two people were in critical condition Thursday morning with life-threatening head injuries and three patients remain in serious condition, he added. A total of eight people remain hospitalized.
"The most critical patients I have a great deal of concern for," Ziebell said. "We are going to do our best for them, but these are some of the worst injuries that we see and not everybody with these kinds of injuries is going to survive."
The annual music, film and interactive conference draws tens of thousands to Austin each year, and the toll could have been much higher. The street had been packed with revelers just minutes earlier, but officials had cleared the area to create a fire lane. Police urged the organizers to go forward with the event.
Police said at a press conference Thursday morning that the emergency response was swift and the most critical patients were removed about 15 minutes after the incident.
"We had a large crowd," Acevedo said at a 2:30 a.m. news conference. "I just thank God that a lot of the folks had already been pushed on the sidewalk or this could have been a lot worse."
Acevedo asked witnesses and those who may have taken video to contact police rather than post it on the Internet. He did not release the names of the victims.
Austin police shut off traffic to about a square mile of downtown for five days during the festival, turning normally busy roads into a large pedestrian mall to help festivalgoers reach dozens of music venues.
The driver rammed through barricades set up on Red River Street on the northeast edge of the entertainment district between an apartment building and The Mohawk nightclub, where multiple acts were to perform Wednesday night. The bands X and TEEN had just wrapped up, and rapper Tyler the Creator was scheduled to perform at 1 a.m.
Scott Jakota, a musician from Indiana in town to play SXSW, told the Austin American-Statesman he was one of the first people hit outside The Mohawk. He said the driver "gunned" the car.
"I was thrown up in the sky," Jakota said.
Overlooking the street, 28-year-old Ally Hulton from Los Angeles, was on a balcony of her friend's apartment when she saw the car driving "at full speed" before hitting someone.
"About 10 bodies went flying," Hulton told the newspaper.
Police said the incident started when an officer on a drunken-driving patrol tried to stop the silver Toyota sedan at a gas station a few blocks away. The car took off, weaving between parked cars then driving at high speed the wrong way down a one-way street.
Upon turning right on Red River Street, the vehicle crashed through a barricade and narrowly missed a police officer. After hitting pedestrians in front of The Mohawk, the driver hit and killed the two people on the moped and hit a taxi cab before finally crashing.
A crime scene unit was still at the scene investigating the crash Thursday.
Acevedo said there were no plans to change safety protocols at the festival due to the accident.
"We do these events very well, but you cannot stop a person who rather than face drunk driving charges decides to speed at a high rate of speed, go around a uniformed officer forcing him to run out of the way, then at a high rate of speed show total disregard for the sanctity of human life," Acevedo said.

so we should make drunk driving illegal? confused??

 

[poopgiggle]

People misuse cars, which excuses the misuse of guns!

 

[grayokc]

Benjamin, the point of my reply to your thread was that someone had used a car to mow down a large group of people, killing two, and I haven't seen a "shocked (and frankly discouraged)" post from you about cars.

But when someone does something wrong, or evil with a gun, you are all over it and adding it to this post.

Let me ask you, what do you propose we do about guns? You appear to be quite concerned, what do you propose?