Sheriffs taking a stand

[Jefpainthorse]

You foks do realise that most of the YOUTUBE OPEN CARRY VS LEO tape is from states that have laws that are way different than what ours will be in November?

Many states don't "allow" open carry by statute... they don't have a law that says you CANT so by defaut it's legal.

So that starts the problem... Cop sees or is sent to a OC er to check it out... the OC er is doing nothing "illegal" so he challenges the request for ID... as he is breaking no law he is not compelled to surrender the ID, his name or the gun. "am I being arrested or legally detained"... NO- I just want to see your ID.... That's the problem. A guy eating at Wendy's with an open gun probably isnt a good "Terry stop" and represents a possible A4 violation.

To contrast the situation... the same guy with a gun is in an alley at 1 am trying door knobs and windows?... See the problem here? I dont. Good well trained cops with ego in check know most of the folks they see are not a problem... and all are potentially armed in the same breath. I dont see much of a change after OC starts here.

2225 was written with language that requires a SDA PERMIT... and rules that require us to produce that permit to a LEO if challenged for it while in OC mode. If further says... once we satisfy that those officers are compelled to leave us alone and go about our day.

 

[sefentress]

I expect there will be efforts by some to open carry in an attempt or hoping that they can get LE to react negatively. I also believe there is LE out there who want to prove OC is a bad idea. I hope Oklahoma LE is taking this time to train and prepare for a much different public dynamic concerning an armed citizenry by providing their people with the information and people skills to handle it..

 

[shootingbuff]

Thank you Jeff for laying it out for us.

 

[300BLKAAC]

Question:
Do you want the police being dispatched to check the validity of someone who is OC? I'm curious.....


Here is the opinion of the average street cop......we don't care if you OC. If you want to walk around with a huge target on your back, that's your right.


When we contact you, just be polite, and bear with us.

Actually I can answer that with a BIG NO unless it can be demonstrated that person is in violation of the law (brandishing , pointing or behaving in a manner that would indicate they are a danger to those around them).

 

[300BLKAAC]

Because it is not the "Gubbermits" business whether or not ANYONE wears a seatbelt, or a helmet or eats their wheaties, etc.

Pretty much ..

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Question:
Do you want the police being dispatched to check the validity of someone who is OC? I'm curious.....


Here is the opinion of the average street cop......we don't care if you OC. If you want to walk around with a huge target on your back, that's your right.


When we contact you, just be polite, and bear with us.

Troy...in most of the states that allow some form of open carry the command of those Police Departments train dispatchers to screen MWAG calls. "OK... the gun may be legal Sir, what is he doing? Has he drawn the gun? Verbal threats? Agressive actions?" That's the kind of information dispatcher pass along to radio cars... and officers tend to use that information for their safety and the safety of the public.

I'd have to think...if you rolled up on a guy like me... walking his dog... that would trigger a lot different strategy on an officers part that if he rolled past a guy camped out on a corner or acting like some kind of 'creeper' next to a sidewalk cafe or park.

The way it usually plays out... the guy like me...you slow down and before you can ask... I will probably tell you I have a SDA card and am legally armed...HOW do you want to continue... and you'd let me know someone called... and maybe even send me on my way.

The other guy? Make the block and see if he's still there. Maybe he needs some attention? You guys have a lot of discretion... after all you dont pull over every fast car, do you? I dont read in 2225 were it's mandated you HAVE to stop every open gun... and using that good sense and officer discretion is what we expect most of your guys to do- as you do in every other contact.

I know LEO's won't refuse service on MWAG call.. but when you guys roll up I'd expect the same evaluation you give any other type of call.

The other expectation of mine... let's say my libtard neigbor is the caller... and you guys get to check me walking my dog about 3 times a week because the same person (or two or three) has called in on me. I'd expect you to contact the caller and tell him to knock-it-off and add some police babble about filing a false complaint or whatever to turn that household on to the law of the land.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

When it comes to open carry issues, I spend a lot more time at opencarry.org than I do here. It is the premier site for OC anywhere in the nation. The recommendations from there is to carry a recorder of some type whenever carrying, video or just voice, but carry a recorder. They also recommend that you be well versed in the specifics of your rights, as not all LE are in favor of OC or know the specific laws that cover it. A recorder works both ways, if you don't know the law and get into a confrontation, you have just "sunk your own ship" but if LE tries to make up laws as they go, like the officer in the video, then you have what you need if the situation escalates to the point of an illegal arrest or seizure. The LAC in this video was very well versed in the law and its application, he did everything he was required to do by the laws of the land. It appeared to me that after the initial encounter, the LE was on a "fishing expedition"

that officer was on a fishing trip in California and the tape was shot before Cali sealed a loop hole allowing unloaded open carry. Of course in California that loop hole was "closed" because a few stand-up educated people were bucking this kind of tactic as a A4 violation of civil rights. If you though that was OK and only a dumb sucker would, A-carry open and unloaded pistol, then B- school a officer on civil rights on a hidden came is bad form... I have a bullet button AR I'd like to sell you.

 

[TroyF]

Troy...in most of the states that allow some form of open carry the command of those Police Departments train dispatchers to screen MWAG calls. "OK... the gun may be legal Sir, what is he doing? Has he drawn the gun? Verbal threats? Agressive actions?" That's the kind of information dispatcher pass along to radio cars... and officers tend to use that information for their safety and the safety of the public.

I'd have to think...if you rolled up on a guy like me... walking his dog... that would trigger a lot different strategy on an officers part that if he rolled past a guy camped out on a corner or acting like some kind of 'creeper' next to a sidewalk cafe or park.

The way it usually plays out... the guy like me...you slow down and before you can ask... I will probably tell you I have a SDA card and am legally armed...HOW do you want to continue... and you'd let me know someone called... and maybe even send me on my way.

The other guy? Make the block and see if he's still there. Maybe he needs some attention? You guys have a lot of discretion... after all you dont pull over every fast car, do you? I dont read in 2225 were it's mandated you HAVE to stop every open gun... and using that good sense and officer discretion is what we expect most of your guys to do- as you do in every other contact.

I know LEO's won't refuse service on MWAG call.. but when you guys roll up I'd expect the same evaluation you give any other type of call.

The other expectation of mine... let's say my libtard neigbor is the caller... and you guys get to check me walking my dog about 3 times a week because the same person (or two or three) has called in on me. I'd expect you to contact the caller and tell him to knock-it-off and add some police babble about filing a false complaint or whatever to turn that household on to the law of the land.

I agree. I just wanted some public/civilian opinion on the matter. I know what my opinion is. And as a trainer, I have been tasked with training my guys on how they should deal with the changes in the law.
I do think calls should be screened. But they aren't now, so I don't expect that to change. And there are geographic tolerances that will factor into whether a scout car gets sent to check you out, whether there are overt signs of a law being broken or not. If you are on your mid-morning walk, and your route takes you in front of a Elementry school..... You can bet the police are gonna get dispatched. Which is where I come in. Get the intent of the OC'r without being overly intrusive. Quite the balancing act.

Honestly I don't see OC being a huge issue. I just don't believe there are gonna be a lot of people out there carrying openly. I think things are gonna be business as usual for the police, with the exception of those who are looking to cause the police some confusion/embaressment.

 

[nikatkimber]

Troy...in most of the states that allow some form of open carry the command of those Police Departments train dispatchers to screen MWAG calls. "OK... the gun may be legal Sir, what is he doing? Has he drawn the gun? Verbal threats? Agressive actions?" That's the kind of information dispatcher pass along to radio cars... and officers tend to use that information for their safety and the safety of the public.

I'd have to think...if you rolled up on a guy like me... walking his dog... that would trigger a lot different strategy on an officers part that if he rolled past a guy camped out on a corner or acting like some kind of 'creeper' next to a sidewalk cafe or park.

The way it usually plays out... the guy like me...you slow down and before you can ask... I will probably tell you I have a SDA card and am legally armed...HOW do you want to continue... and you'd let me know someone called... and maybe even send me on my way.

The other guy? Make the block and see if he's still there. Maybe he needs some attention? You guys have a lot of discretion... after all you dont pull over every fast car, do you? I dont read in 2225 were it's mandated you HAVE to stop every open gun... and using that good sense and officer discretion is what we expect most of your guys to do- as you do in every other contact.

I know LEO's won't refuse service on MWAG call.. but when you guys roll up I'd expect the same evaluation you give any other type of call.

The other expectation of mine... let's say my libtard neigbor is the caller... and you guys get to check me walking my dog about 3 times a week because the same person (or two or three) has called in on me. I'd expect you to contact the caller and tell him to knock-it-off and add some police babble about filing a false complaint or whatever to turn that household on to the law of the land.

Holy crap! Is that common sense? You expect reason and logic from people?!?! Heresy!

Everyone knows that all the cops are out to get you, and that everyone with a CCW that agrees with OC is gonna try to recreate the OK Corral on Nov 1.

 

[okshooter26]

As far as people being harrassed for legally open carrying (Nov 1st and in the future) . I want to say I'm not trying to pick on law enforcement. I also believe that most police officers don't intentionally try to harass law abiding citizens but I do believe that the law applies to everyone and as they are required to enforce it and represent their community they should know the law they are enforcing. Ignorance of the law not being a defense should be a two way street.

 

[okshooter26]

Sheriffs Standing with the People against the Feds



Wednesday, 04 January 2012 23:22 Written by Larry Pratt
I have reported earlier that sheriffs in New Mexico are threatening to arrest federal agents if they attempt to enforce unconstitutional federal acts in contravention of state law.
The even better news is that sheriffs in other states are doing the same. Sheriff Brad Rogers of Elkhart County, Indiana has told Food and Drug Administration agents they will be arrested if they go on Amish farmer David Hochstetler’s land. Having falsely alleged that raw, unpasteurized milk sold by Hochstetler had caused several cases of food poisoning, the FDA filed a complaint in federal court to support their attack on the farmer.
I have consumed raw milk for years and can affirm that it is not only safe, but much healthier than pasteurized milk.
The threat of incarceration led the feds to withdraw their complaint against Hochstetler. This was even after US Department of Justice attorney Ross Goldstein emailed the Sheriff that he would be arrested if he protected Hochstetler. When Sheriff Rogers refused to back down, the FDA cried uncle.
Rogers’s communication to the feds seemed to have been quite convincing: “Any further attempts to inspect this farm without a warrant signed by a local judge, based on probable cause, will result in Federal inspectors’ removal or arrest for trespassing by my officers or I.” The feds have gotten used to acting without due process -- in this case, that means not bothering to get a search warrant.
Rogers’ campaign website listed his number one objective as “Upholding the Constitution.” He is also concerned about the heart condition of his inmates and is determined to help “Provide Hope to Change a Heart.” Under that header he says, “The Elkhart County jail has 74 church services a month and allows unprecedented access to ministry volunteers. Not only can we impact inmates for the here and now, but for eternity.”
Sheriff Rogers requires his deputies to take three, two-day classes on the Constitution (at a tuition rate of $125 per person).
Rogers is not alone in his love for the Constitution. Ellis County, Texas Sheriff Johnny Brown has stated that he would resist any effort by the federal government to confiscate firearms in his county.
Sheriff Joe Baca in Sierra County, California told his county commission that he will not enforce road closures on Bureau of Land Management and Gila National Forest Lands.
Sheriff Gil Gilbertson of Josephine County, Oregon has told the Forest Service that he will protect those using the forest in his county. He has written a short treatise entitled, “Unraveling Federal Jurisdiction within a State.” It is actually a scholarly piece based on citations from the Constitution, court cases and statutes and concludes that the Forest Service has no authority in any county.
Siskiyou County, California Sheriff Jon Lopey has said: “I have told federal and state officials over and over that, yes, we want to preserve the environment, but you care more about the fish, frogs, trees and birds than you do about the human race. When will you start to balance your decisions to the needs of the people?...We are right now in a fight for our survival.” Lopey spearheaded a coalition of eight sheriffs calling themselves: “Defend Rural America.”
In the days after Hurricane Katrina, power was out for days. Food and medicine were about to be lost. So Sheriff Billy McGee of Forrest County, Mississippi -- a Democrat -- took action when he realized that a federal shipment of six trucks of ice bound for Hattiesburg turned out to be only four. McGee went in search of the other two and found them being guarded by some Army reservists who possessed bureaucratic mindsets.
McGee took steps to secure the ice, but was told he was not authorized to take the vehicles. When a reservist would not get off one of the trucks, McGee had him handcuffed. The ice was delivered where it was needed in Hattiesburg, explaining why McGee is also known as The Ice Man.
Not surprisingly, the feds have brought suit against the Sheriff in federal court. Perhaps McGee will arrest any marshals seeking to interfere with the duties of a peace officer.
It is encouraging that men of integrity, who understand that the sheriff is the top law enforcement officer in his county, have been elected in counties around the country. We should be looking for more who fit this description.

normally when I get a call asking for donations for law enforcement groups of some sort I usually tell them that I would donate but the tickets they wrote took all of my money... LOL But THIS SHERIFF?!!!! all I can say is do you take credit cards or do you prefer cash!

 

[mlr1m]

As far as people being harrassed for legally open carrying (Nov 1st and in the future) . I want to say I'm not trying to pick on law enforcement. I also believe that most police officers don't intentionally try to harass law abiding citizens but I do believe that the law applies to everyone and as they are required to enforce it and represent their community they should know the law they are enforcing. Ignorance of the law not being a defense should be a two way street.

This is the way I see it too. I do not expect the police to know every law, only the one they are stopping me for. If they do not know whether or not I am breaking a law then leave me alone. The idea that the Government should be able to detain, seize or arrest a person and hold them until such time they can find a law on the books should not be accepted. Find the law first then make the arrest.

Michael

 

[gprod55]

Ignorance of the law does not only apply to the public.