LoganbillJ
Sponsor
Just curious what you guys feel is the better scoring system for 3 gun. Total time or points? Also, why do you feel this is better and fairer across the board versus the alternative.
Scoring preference and why?
- Thread starter LoganbillJ
- Start date
Topshotdudley
Team Scalpel Arms
I think points is a better way to score a match. With just a straight time match if you have one thing happen to you you're out of the match right then. With a points match if you have a mess up or two it will even out more over the entire match. So shooters can make a mistake or two and still be able to finish a good match.
Percentage points per stage.
Total time doesn't allow you to "make up" for a bad stage.
If you blow a long range stage (maybe by 20-30 sec.) for example the time it costs is usually waaaaaaay more than a shooter blowing a quick 20 second burner stage (maybe 3-5 sec.).
Points levels the melt downs regardless of the stage type.
Total time doesn't allow you to "make up" for a bad stage.
If you blow a long range stage (maybe by 20-30 sec.) for example the time it costs is usually waaaaaaay more than a shooter blowing a quick 20 second burner stage (maybe 3-5 sec.).
Points levels the melt downs regardless of the stage type.
MiniUzi
Well-Known Fanatic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPxs0Qh72kY#t=31s&stop=54s
six of one half a dozen of the other to me. I like them both although it seems to me that points is more forgiving if you blow one stage in a match you can recover better if you are consistent with the others. Time + is an all day goat rope if you screw up bad enough on a single stage
six of one half a dozen of the other to me. I like them both although it seems to me that points is more forgiving if you blow one stage in a match you can recover better if you are consistent with the others. Time + is an all day goat rope if you screw up bad enough on a single stage
LoganbillJ
Sponsor
I will play the devils advocate here. Lets say all your stages are equal or close to equal as far as time goes. 45-65 seconds for the top guys. Is it still better to have points or just straight time? All the examples I see of why its better is if you have the far extremes on stage times. A bunch of 20 second stages and one 120 sec stage.
Also, why in a racing sport, is it ok to essentially get a free pass if you or your guns have a meltdown?
Also, why in a racing sport, is it ok to essentially get a free pass if you or your guns have a meltdown?
Topshotdudley
Team Scalpel Arms
I'll still stand by points. I think it's superior to time. One mess up and you're done. Let's say you have a five stage match with each stage about 40 seconds. You have a malfunction on your pistol that costs you 20 seconds. No instead of a 2:40 match time you're at 3:00. You can look at 3GN and between the top 30 guys there's is about a 20 second gap. Now let's say you have the same match with points and you have the same malfunction. You're still going to the in the 90% range if you're running the stages at the top. "why in a racing sport, is it ok to essentially get a free pass if you or your guns have a meltdown?" It's easy to say that now but when you're at a major match and it happeneds it's a different story.LoganbillJ said:
LuckyDucky
Well-Known Fanatic
Time+ Total Time scoring can still limit the disaster stages with a time cap. Usually the time caps are huge though and aren't really there for that reason.
Topshotdudley
Team Scalpel Arms
Although Time + does reward the consistent shooter.
LoganbillJ
Sponsor
I agree it sucks when a malfunction occurs but you are accountable for your shooting and your firearms function. When you show up on race day you should be ready. I have been burned many times by the points system. Not sure I have ever gained from it. I have had major malfunctions at matches that completely screwed me but I took it in stride and shot the rest of the match to the best of my ability. No one wants to have a meltdown on a stage, but it happens to everyone. Anytime it happens it should be looked at as a learning experience. No one should be blamed but yourself.
If a time cap is set correctly and used as such, it would benefit the total time scoring greatly. Personally I lean towards rewarding the guy who can shoot consistent rather than the guy who can burn down one stage but completely tank the next. Normally if that's the case the stage he burned down was catered to his strength while the one he tanked was more his weakness. A consistent shooter will be able to handle all 3 guns well with no definite advantage in any. Which I believe is the goal of this sport, to master all 3 guns.
If a time cap is set correctly and used as such, it would benefit the total time scoring greatly. Personally I lean towards rewarding the guy who can shoot consistent rather than the guy who can burn down one stage but completely tank the next. Normally if that's the case the stage he burned down was catered to his strength while the one he tanked was more his weakness. A consistent shooter will be able to handle all 3 guns well with no definite advantage in any. Which I believe is the goal of this sport, to master all 3 guns.
Spiff
Semi-Pro
If you time out ("time cap"), you're not going to be competitive anyway, that's not what we're talking about. Time plus doesn't reward consistency, it rewards kicking ass on the long stages. On short stages, it basically doesn't matter what you do as long as you don't suck, if on the long range rifle or the 40 round shotgun stage you owned it. Points per stage makes all the stages worth the same, that's what rewards consistency. Because if you flop any one stage at any of my normal local matches, there is enough existing competition that someone's going to have a good day and clean your clock.
Sundance74
Well-Known Fanatic
What Austin said
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
I don't think we have figured out the best method yet. I dislike cumulative time for reasons mentioned above. Loading shotgun, shogun shooting and any long range shooting is slow and can be difficult. If you can't hit a long range target your cumulative time can add up quick. For total time scoring to be effective each stage has to have a balanced time or some stages really don't amount to much.
I really like the way Ipsc shotgun works. Each target is worth 5 points. Each stage is worth the number of targets you shoot. Bigger stages get bigger points and little speed shoots get less. The only thing that is lacking is for long range shooting. Those targets are slower and more difficult so one could argue that they should be more valuable.
I think a 5 point per target, 10 points per target from 50-150 yards, 15 points per target from151-infinity yards might be the cats meow.
I really like the way Ipsc shotgun works. Each target is worth 5 points. Each stage is worth the number of targets you shoot. Bigger stages get bigger points and little speed shoots get less. The only thing that is lacking is for long range shooting. Those targets are slower and more difficult so one could argue that they should be more valuable.
I think a 5 point per target, 10 points per target from 50-150 yards, 15 points per target from151-infinity yards might be the cats meow.
LoganbillJ
Sponsor
Jesse I think you may be onto something there. May just have to do a test run of that system at our next match.
shootingbuff
Well-Known Fanatic
Interesting views. Maybe other sports will incorporate the same thought process.
Forgot to mention I have stayed in a Motel Six but never a Holiday Inn so I know not of what I speak of.
Forgot to mention I have stayed in a Motel Six but never a Holiday Inn so I know not of what I speak of.
drmitchgibson
The white Morgan Freeman
Good thread
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
Should be pretty easy with practiscore. Just gotta determine how much the hard stuff is worth over a "standard" target. The cool thing about this idea is you can have short stages and they don't count for the generic 100 points like typical outlaw matches.LoganbillJ said:
LuckyDucky
Well-Known Fanatic
USPSA assigns stages with more targets more value than stages with less targets.Jesse Tischauser said:
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
Yes just like ipsc shotgun but shotgun doesn't use that crap they call hit factor. What a headache that crap is.Spencer said:
LoganbillJ
Sponsor
Ok, got to thinking about this last night after the RO's shot. Here is what I propose. I weighted different targets with different weights based on the difficulty and time it takes to shoot them.
Pistol
3pts Full Size Paper
4pts Half Size Paper, Poppers
5pts Plates (6"x6")
Shotgun
4pts Poppers
5pts Plates, Stationary Clays
6pts Flying Clays, Slugs
Rifle
3pts Full Size Paper(inside 20yds)
4pts Full Size Paper(past 20yds), Half Size Paper
7pts Steel to 100yds
9pts Steel 101-200yds
15pts Steel 201-infinity
Feel free to adjust and make suggestions. If we get it dialed in before this weekend I will do a test run at our match. I do think this will be a better balance of the points system and total time. Allowing a shooter to make a mistake and not be hurt as bad as total time, but also at the same time not get the shaft on the points system.
Pistol
3pts Full Size Paper
4pts Half Size Paper, Poppers
5pts Plates (6"x6")
Shotgun
4pts Poppers
5pts Plates, Stationary Clays
6pts Flying Clays, Slugs
Rifle
3pts Full Size Paper(inside 20yds)
4pts Full Size Paper(past 20yds), Half Size Paper
7pts Steel to 100yds
9pts Steel 101-200yds
15pts Steel 201-infinity
Feel free to adjust and make suggestions. If we get it dialed in before this weekend I will do a test run at our match. I do think this will be a better balance of the points system and total time. Allowing a shooter to make a mistake and not be hurt as bad as total time, but also at the same time not get the shaft on the points system.
