Practical Training

bratch

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Back to the point..... If I wish to transform myself into a Jason Bourne kinda guy, here's what I consider essential:

Essential
1. Mental/Physical Conditioning. I believe the two go hand in hand, and I cannot seperate the two.
2. Managing Unknown Contacts
3. H2H (Unarmed, Edged Weapon, Impact Weapons)
4. Pistol Skills
5. Driving Skills
6. CPR/First Aid

Meh, maybe....
1. Carbine
2. Shotgun
3. Armorers courses for your primary firearms

And for Ghits and Shiggles
1. Lockpicking

I agree with this list but would probably rank it 1, 5, 6, 2, 4, 3 in terms of practicality in my life. I drive alot more than I get in fist or gun fights.

However I haven't done a great job of maintaining a good balance in my training, its good but could be better. I hope to work on that this and and into the future.

Are there any good driving classes around other than OSU-OKC?
 

TroyF

TheBearcat
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Well, the guy who runs the OSU-OKC course use to be the lead driving instructor for OHP. He is a great instructor and a really funny guy. And he staffs that course with LEDT (Law Enforcement Driver Training) Instructors from various PDs across the state. Some of those guys live and breathe driving/cars like we do guns and H2H. They are truly awesome drivers. I teach LEDT, but honestly, some of those guys amaze me.

I know of no other driving school of this type. There are the basic driving schools like Browns, etc. But what you really want is a more "defensive" driving school. Techniques like shuffle steering, flexing the wheel, controled braking, evasive manuevers, J-turns, etc...... that is where it is at.

Call Randy Jacobi at OSU-OKC. He can steer you (no pun intended) in the right direction.
 

Prdator

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So to sum it up, we are all saying the same thing's but put a slight difference in the order once we move past Mindset and MUC.

And if I was truly doing every thing right physical fitness would be much higher on the list!! and if I was smart I'd get that from H2H training.
 

SteveS

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While you are correct that you are allowed to carry in a bank my point is still the same. You will have to go places (most people) where you are not allowed to carry. You must defend the initial attack before you can draw and shoot.

How many shootings have you heard of here in OK where the victim was carrying concealed? Does that mean they were not attacked?

My order of priority

1. Mind Set / Awareness

2. H2H

3. Physical Conditioning

4. Pistol

5. Driving

6 First Aid
 

OK Bowhunter

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Great thread and a lot of good points have been made. How (what type) and where would you get started in H2H?
 

TroyF

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I really like Krav Maga. It has the best of everything, in my opinion. No fluff, just violence.
 

OK Bowhunter

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I had one Krav Maga class I would like to have more, but they are on Tuesday/Thursday and I all ready commited on those days. Anyone know of classes in the South OKC area?
 

SMS

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This is true and gets back to the point of needing to better choose who we associate with to lower our risk.

People talk about being concerned for their well being then will go out and drink with their hot head buddy,

+1. Case in point, two people were recently murdered in the OKC area, in seperate incidents. The stories on Newsok.com showed pictures of the victims...both were mugshots from past/recent arrests. "How you livin'?" comes to mind.

As to how H2H training fits in, for me the take away from my very first H2H class was not being a better H2H fighter, but being more aware of threats and losing some of the mystery/fear of physical combat with another human being. No matter how many holes I punch in paper, I am not coming anywhere close to 'simulating combat' and conditioning myself for the same.

Getting down and grappling with another human does. That carried over into everything...not just H2H fighting. It fed my decision making, threat avoidance, tactical movement, everything. I need to do more of it....if only I had more time.
 

stewartglock

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There is some really good info in this thread. I have personally been contemplating these things for the last few months, and how they relate to me and my life style as a non-LEO civilian.

1. Physical/Mental conditioning

All the skills in the world are great to have, but if you are not physically or mentally prepared to fight all out for 2 at least minutes, what good will those skills be to you. Why 2 minutes, I don't have data to back up that figure but I feel if I can last for 2 minutes of all out fighting, I will be able to outlast most of my attackers.

2. H2H

As a civilian, I think I will be more likely to be involved in a hand to hand situation than a lethal force situation. And in my opinion, most lethal force situations that I can imagine I would be involved in would begin as hand to hand. Now I know some people won't agree with that, but in my opinion, I am more likely to be in a situation where lethal force would not be admissible. There are many things that could/would elevate this to a lethal force situation though also. I am also putting firearm retention in this category.

3. Firearm

I put firearm training 3rd simply because, for myself, it is my absolute last possible option to go to. I would much rather be able to resolve a defense situation with my hands than my firearm.
 

ExSniper

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Thanks for the great responses. I think everyone agrees with the concept of getting a wide variety of training, but what specifically would you pay for? What would be the priorities for a limited budget? What would you consider a waste of time and money?

The State of Oklahoma paid for some of my training and Troy was one of the instructors who did a great job teaching necessary shooting and driving skills. As a small town cop my funds are quite limited for training, ammo, and equipment. Unless you are independently wealthy (in which case you can contact me about becoming your training partner), you probably have to make tough choices between training and eating. What are the essentials that we should invest in? What are worthless?

Please be specific. You can advertise for your favorite trainer/facility/style or technique. Troy spoke about Krav Maga, but what about Brazilian Jui Jitsu or Blauer's SPEAR? Others mentioned John Farnam, but what specifically and who else? Is it possible to put together a list of the schools/techniques/ and people that the competitors/cops/military and civilian carriers should consider when developing a program?

Thanks for the great input.
 

Prdator

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I think a "wide variety" is not quite right. I think Mastering a few very effective techniques is the best road to take.
With that in mind, here is the Must have IMHO!!

1, Good handgun skill's, Will Andrews, www.oklahomashootingskills.com, Todd Green, Tom Givens, ( Tom may be the best bet for LEO's)

2, Force on Force, CQT with Mike Brown at USSA, and ECQC with Southnarc, Every one I've ever talked to thought these were the best ever. these classes will prove your H2H stuff works ( or doesn't)

3, H2H, Not sure were but the technique needs to be easy and work when your at your worst. ( that's why I say CQT at USSA)

4, For LEO's, Carbine Skills, Magpul, ( the best I've seen) Jason Falla, Jim Smith, USSA,Paul How, ect. ( this is only if your primary long gun is a carbine)

5 Shot gun, Tom Givens, USSA, Loui Arwebuck,


Now what I would suggest, before you spend your hard earned $$ decide on what you want/need to take and then ask around and look for AAR's on the net then make your decision.


Hope this helps.
 

ldp4570

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Mindset is the most important of all. As to H2H, that also depends on the persons physical condition. Myself due to injuries received during my time in Iraq, going H2H with someone i.e. a younger person will/can become a lethal confrontation for me if struck in the head or neck. Yes all this is well documented, and can be articulated in court. The younger person will likely get shot at the worst or atleast get to see my gun in the least. Heck I can't even drive without wearing a brace, without if I eat an airbag I'll either be dead or crippled, and even that after a couple of hours is painful. Due to this I can't maintain the upper level strength I used to have, so shooting skill's are very important to me. This also limits my use of calibers. I also have damage to my ulnar nerve. I can shoot a limited amount of .45acp, and 44spl, but it is painful, so I keep myself at 9MM/38spl or smaller. This does carry over to rifles, and shotguns. Its sucks being wounded and getting old!!!!!!!
 

nikatkimber

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A comment for consideration. The vast majority of the public is unarmed, thus the data will be skewed that direction. However, as legal CHL holders, we must realize that any confrontation we are involved in will be an armed confrontation. (Yes, there are exceptions, like .gov or .edu situations) I'll reference this in a minute.

I would break it into a couple basic categories.

"Practical" Skills, that could also be needed for Violent Attack
Defensive driving
First Aid
Needing either of these are far more likely, and far more broadly useful than the following skills. There is a much higher chance of needing to drive on ice, or regain control of a vehicle, or administer first aid than dealing with a mugging/burglary.


Preventing Physical Violence
Here is where we all agree, Mindset/Awareness is the most important thing we can do, followed closely by Managing Unknown (or known) Contacts.
So far, the numbers from Troy show that who we spend time with, and when we are out and about have the biggest influence on likelihood of attack.
Not being "contacted" in the first place, or being able de-escalate or flee the "contact" is paramount.


Dealing With Physical Violence
In no order particular H2H unarmed, H2H armed (knife, club etc), Gun
Here I'll reference my comment earlier. As a civilian, I cannot "radio for backup." So I am on my own until I win or lose the fight; I don't have the luxury of "staying in the fight till backup arrives." Next comment is as an armed person, if I get to a physical confrontation, it's lethal. Because if it gets to H2H, the BG could get my gun. So as a civilian with a gun, my duty is 1 of 2 options, de-escalate, back down (pride fights), or flee; UNLESS it justifies lethal force. The way I see it, if I get in a fight, justified or not, I've introduced lethal force to the fight. Sure, there's exceptions. An 8 year old or 90lb woman (I'm 6'1" 185lbs) come to mind, but in that case, it still doesn't mean I'm free to get into a fight, it just means it takes more to justify lethal force. As Troy mentioned, non LEO can usually justify lethal force quicker, however IMO, that also means armed non-LEO have more of a duty to avoid the confrontation in the first place. (Side note, being able to voice this would, again IMO, help you in court should the SHTF.) Finally, the goal here is "survival." Both for yourself and loved ones. To my knowledge, being able to master the handgun for self defense will ultimately take less time than it would become proficient enough in H2H of any sort enough for my life to depend upon it.

All that to say, I can't see as a civilian, H2H being anything other than a means of staying alive until I can get to a better weapon (read gun for the most part), with which to disable the opponent. Not discounting the importance of H2H skills, but if I'm in a fight, it's not to "subdue" or "beat up" the other guy, it's to survive.

The line is fine, but simple to me. If I get into a fight, the "fear of great bodily harm or death" clause has been met, and I will use whatever means I deem best at the time to end the fight.

Again, all that to say that to me, any firearm training that does not include fighting to or defending your gun, is not complete. (Not to imply not beneficial, just not complete) Likewise, any H2H training that does not focus on ending the fight ASAP, or creating enough distance to access a better weapon, is not complete. I understand reality enough to know that a BG will not step out at 10 paces and announce that on the count of 3 he is going to shoot; but I also realize that I do not have the time, or interest to devote to learning the necessary H2H skills to be able to take on all comers when my life counts on it.

End Ramble.
 

SteveS

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To my knowledge, being able to master the handgun for self defense will ultimately take less time than it would become proficient enough in H2H of any sort enough for my life to depend upon it.

Becoming proficient in H2H does not take near as long as mastering the handgun. An effective style of self defense will take your normal reaction to various attacks and add quick easy effective blocks and strikes. All of which can end the fight or allow you time to gain distance to deploy your handgun.

IMO mastering the handgun includes defending an attack, gaining distance, and drawing from concealment under stress.

If the goal is to be proficient enough to accomplish the above, you can do that with a few seminars and a little practice from time to time.
 

TroyF

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First off, great comments gus! Keep em coming.

Let me clarify something from a few posts back. Although I believe I understand what the poster is saying, I just want to clean someting up. If you are involved in a H2H situation, and are armed, you are not neccisarily in a lethal force situation. Sure there is a gun in the vicinity, close vicinity in fact, but you may not be justified in using said firearm. Your goal would be to protect that firearm until your resources are exhausted. Which to my mind is where H2H, and specifically weapon retention, comes into play. I don't want anyone walking away from this thread thinking that a dude swings at you, and you can just blast away. I don't believe that was the intent of that post.

Let's look at it like this...Go to Seeklander's website. There is video on there of him shooting and training in H2H. Alot of people know Mike Brown for his CQT course, but alot don't know that at one time he was a force to be reckoned with in IDPA. I know the crew over at TDSA value H2H training. Lance Jensen, who the competition crowd know well, had to drop out off the CLEET DTI School for a medical reason. So all of these big time firearm guys are also fairly big H2H guys. Why is that? And let me add.......I know for a fact that Rob Leatham has trained with Royce Gracie.

If you carry a gun, you are doing yourself a great disservice by not considering some type of H2H training.

Now to specifics, as requested by Ex-Sniper:

H2H:
Krav Maga. Simple to learn. Violence of Action. And let's face it, the Isreali's know how to f people up.
Royce Gracie. Simple to learn. Finesse over brawn. The best weeks I've ever spent training were with Royce. It's like having Lance Armstrong teach you to ride a bike. As close to the source as you can get.

Firearms:
Mike Seeklander. Is he my boss? Yep. Am I partial because of that? Nope. Simply put, Mike is one of the best in the country with a pistol. And he is intense.
Phil Strader. What else do I need to say...it's freakin Phil Strader. He use to wear a badge too. And I've heard rumor that Phil came down the birth canal dry-firing a pistol.
What I like about these two, besides their shooting abilities, is their contrasts in styles. I don't know how to express this without offending either, but I'll say it. They are yin and yang. Whereas Mike might motivate you by saying, "that target is trying to kill you so you better hit it"....and Phil might throw something out like, "if you hit the target, I'll run down and paste the target in my banana hammock and gunbelt". Same result, just differing styles.
Anyone that Predator listed. I just have more expereice with Phil and Mike.

Driving:
Limited.............Randy Jacoby at OSU/OKC.

In closing, I'll leave with this quote. I stole it from someone, I just don't remember who..... "YOU are the weapon, everything else is just a tool."

Oh, and ExSniper...thanks for the compliment.
 

nikatkimber

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First off, great comments gus! Keep em coming.

Let me clarify something from a few posts back. Although I believe I understand what the poster is saying, I just want to clean someting up. If you are involved in a H2H situation, and are armed, you are not neccisarily in a lethal force situation. Sure there is a gun in the vicinity, close vicinity in fact, but you may not be justified in using said firearm. Your goal would be to protect that firearm until your resources are exhausted. Which to my mind is where H2H, and specifically weapon retention, comes into play.


I tried re-reading my post, but sometimes my intent clouds my ability to edit my own writing. I know what I meant to say. Yes, it is not necessarily introducing lethal force by getting into a scuffle while armed, but lethal force could be introduced at any time without you wanting it to be, if the BG somehow got hold of your gun.

I don't want anyone walking away from this thread thinking that a dude swings at you, and you can just blast away. I don't believe that was the intent of that post.


You are correct; that wasn't my intent. I've never been one to get into a fight over, well, anything so far. So yes, I'd agree there is a difference between someone taking a swing at you, and getting jumped from behind and drug to the ground.

I guess in my effort to stress the importance of avoiding the fight in the first place as an armed citizen, I wasn't clear enough.

Becoming proficient in H2H does not take near as long as mastering the handgun. An effective style of self defense will take your normal reaction to various attacks and add quick easy effective blocks and strikes. All of which can end the fight or allow you time to gain distance to deploy your handgun.

IMO mastering the handgun includes defending an attack, gaining distance, and drawing from concealment under stress.

If the goal is to be proficient enough to accomplish the above, you can do that with a few seminars and a little practice from time to time.

That was kind of my point though, learning enough to use my gun (or other weapon); as opposed to becoming a skilled enough fighter to consider that my only weapon. H2H as a means of breaking contact and getting some distance.
 

TroyF

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NikatKimber:

We're good. I knew waht you were saying, I just wanted to stress those points. I'm the same way, I'll type something and know what I said. My little peabrain fills in the holes that my digits dont convey. Lol

I honestly think we are all on the same page here. Again, I think this thread is extremely important. I think it is in the vein as the intent of this whole forum.
 

nikatkimber

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NikatKimber:

We're good. I knew waht you were saying, I just wanted to stress those points. I'm the same way, I'll type something and know what I said. My little peabrain fills in the holes that my digits dont convey. Lol

I honestly think we are all on the same page here. Again, I think this thread is extremely important. I think it is in the vein as the intent of this whole forum.

Good to know I'm not the only one in this little boat.

I'm going to edit my post so as not to mislead anyone. Nevermind... can't edit that post anymore.

It is important. It's important to know that just because you may strap on your gun in the morning, that doesn't make you invincible.
 

TroyF

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One of the posters on this thread runs a martial arts school. I know he's a KM Instructor. I need a new training partner. Anyone down?
 

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