Practical Training

ExSniper

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Solomon told us "there is nothing new under the sun" and that holds true for self defense, both with and without weapons. Many of the instructors and "experts" claim they have a new techniques, new drills, new systems, but most can be traced back to some much earlier training.
Many of these "new" techniques are based upon one specific detail. An example would be point shooting versus sighted fire. Both techniques work in some instances, both have their weaknesses, and proponents of each side can cite numerous examples of why their system/technique is superior. Both sides are absolutely correct!
The problem, as I see it, is that we use examples to support our particular pet skill and these examples while valid for the instance cited cannot be accurately applied to ALL situations. The thing is that no two self defense situations are ever alike. People get shot in the chest and live, others get a survivable wound and die. Some continue to fight long after multiple fatal wounds have been inflicted, some faint at the thought of impending harm.
Statistical analysis of one-shot stops, bullet effectiveness, and any of the other myriad of studies that have been made all suffer from the same flaw, the database is too small and has too many outside variables. Since we cannot shoot, stab, or pummel thousands of similarly sized/shaped/conditioned people under precisely controlled conditions, these studies will remain just a report on how some people reacted to somewhat similar stimuli.
Most of the arguments we find on gun forums, in gun magazines, or in professional journals of military and law enforcement personnel, are based on anecdotal evidence. "I shot a guy with a 9mm and he did not fall down" does not prove or disprove anything. Neither does 100 or 1000 police or military reports that detail the incapacitation rate for weapon X. The devil is indeed in the details.
What I draw from these studies and from the many popular shooting, knife fighting, or empty hand defense techniques is that we need to know as many of them as possible, become proficient in a select and various few, and be able to quickly move from one to the next if our first choice is ineffective.
Learning to point shoot is not difficult for a skilled sight user and vice versa. Being skilled with a handgun should not make us comfortable until we are also skilled with empty hands, edged weapons, and long guns. The old adage about being wary of the man who only owns one gun may be true if the situation lends itself well to the limitations of that one gun.
I usually carry a 1911. It is my primary handgun and the one I am most comfortable and skilled with. This does not stop me from training with my Glock duty weapon, an XD sub-compact, a .357 revolver, or any other firearm I can get hold of. Knowing how to effectively use whatever tool is at hand makes you a more devastating adversary. The same can be said of various types of knives, swords, daggers, machetes, etc., or of rifles, shotguns, sub-machine guns, or rocket launchers. Even the unarmed martial arts, the empty hand techniques, are best employed by someone who has trained in a variety of skills. The point is being able to come up with the correct solution for the task at hand.
My plan is to expand on this basic premise as I add to my training to prepare my students for "real world encounters." The average accountant or storekeeper probably does not need to be a master of all weapons systems and all schools of fighting. The threats he or she is likely to encounter would probably be rather limited and therefore the responses could probably be handled by a few wise choices and a smaller range of training. Obviously an infantryman or a cop on the street would need a few more choices and sufficient training in a number of areas.
So what say you? What areas of training are necessary across the board? What additional areas for specific roles? Are the arguments really valid or are we just wasting ink and keeping instructors and writers employed? Let me know what are the essentials, the nice to know, and a complete waste of time.
What do you think?
 

Repete34

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I agree with you...

King davids men were skilled in many ways as well. Left and right hand with sword, spear and sling. I am sure they were also skilled with the open hand. All being neccesary to acomplish the goal.
 

Prdator

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So what say you? What areas of training are necessary across the board? What additional areas for specific roles? Are the arguments really valid or are we just wasting ink and keeping instructors and writers employed? Let me know what are the essentials, the nice to know, and a complete waste of time.
What do you think?

Very good post and question!!!

This is my interpretation of the questions you asked, and the answers have come from my experiences in the Firearm training industry.


For a Civilian context ( and some LEO). and the Instructors that I think are the BEST in there field.

The Must have,

Mind Set ( John Farnam, Tom Givens, and a honorable mention to Todd Green)
Managing Unknown Contacts ( Southnarc or Mike Brown)
Handgun Skills, ( Will Andrews, Todd Green, Tom Givens, Mike Seeklander, ect) I would add that taking any class Tom Givens has that you can get to is a must, Tom has had 58 or so Student involved in gun play and they all have came out on top!!
Force on Force H2H and Knife skills , ( Southnarc, Mike Brown, Karal Rhen)
First Aid/CPR, Red Cross.
First Responder, OCCC,
Some sort of Physical training. ( This is probably the most needed thing we can do)
Defensive Driving



The nice to have,

Shotgun for Home defense, ( Givens, Andrews,Farnam, ect)
Carbine,
Long range rifle


The Absolute waste of time and money,

Caliber Debates, ( 9'mm or above will get the job done, the real question is can YOU deliver the round Fast and Accurately)

The carrying of multiple types of different guns. ( once you have a "good" quality one that can run a 1000 round class with out issues and make good hits with it from 0-50 yards Stick with it!! Spend the extra $ you would buy another safe queen with and spend it on Training and ammo.

Unless your Claud Werner, Carrying ONLY a Sub caliber handgun and calling your self armed. ( read LCP's ect)

Combative training that has not been proved my Non-agreed upon force on force Scenarios.

Once you have the basics down, taking a SD handgun class with gear you will not wear on the street.


Just a few of my thoughts.
 

KurtM

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Well ya got to be willing. If you aren't willing no amount of training in any type of defence will help, and it is hard to teach willing. If you find a school that teaches that, then you can go onto other things. If you are willing it hardly matters what you learn as long as you have a grounding in the basics of HTH and GunPlay. I figure one in 10,000 is truely willing, for the rest there always remains being alert so they can set their minds up to be willing.
 

Prdator

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Kurt's right and that's why I put Mind Set first!! And Farnam does the best job I've seen on that.
 

TroyF

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Probably not going to be a popular opinion on a gun forum but here goes.....

Right after Mindset, I would have to put a premium on some type of H2H. Yes, even before firearms training. The reason I say this, is you are more likely to be engaged in an unarmed confrontation. So if you are operating on a limited budget, with limited training time, I would say your time/money investment is best spent in H2H. If your resources (and better 1/2) allow, then by all means soak in ALL of the training you can grab.

The flip side to this, and I can see this point as well (I just dont subscribe to it) is that you should put a premium on the training for the most dangerous encounter (lethal force)you are likely to find yourself in.

If you dig deep enough, you will find there are similaraties in H2H and Firearms training. You just have to find an instructor who understands both. Predator did a good job of listing those resources.
 

bratch

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That's just because you like rolling around with sweaty men Troy.

On the civilian side I see a need for some H2H but I don't place it at the top of my list. I have no responsibility to go hands on with anybody the way a LEO does, I don't have to cuff anybody, I don't have to pat them down, etc. Hopefully deescalation and not being there will prevent most H2H encounters that I would have. Saying that it is an area I'm weak in and need to improve. Using Tom's students incidents I believe on 5-10% were at contact distances. If there is a 10% chance my encounter will be at contact distance should I spend 80% of my time there training? The flip side to H2H training is it probably provides some health benefits that most of us could use.

Practical training to me is just that practical. What am I likely to encounter in my day to day life?

The vast majority of civilian training should be with the handgun, preferably the handgun you carry every day in the manner you carry it. Wearing a race rig with a STI 2011 in class and then carrying a J-frame in your pocket isn't going to carry over real well. You can probably shoot the STI better than you could before the class but can you shoot your defensive handgun any better? Every class I've taken has been with an IWB holster with whatever was my regular carry gun at the time.

Long gun training should be centered around what you are going to use. If you keep an 870 around the house and the AR in the safe why would you spend all of your time training with the AR? Are you really going to be wearing a plate carrier with 12 AR mags or will it just be the one in the rifle?

Medical training is something that should be a focus. As shooters we are more likely to see an accidental GSW on the range than to get in a gun fight we are also more likely to be injured in or drive up on a car wreck with injuries than to be in a shoot out. Medical skills and supplies could address these situations.

I've taken some fun classes and learned some good info but in reality the material has very little real world use for my lifestyle. 2 man tactics with bounding drills and cover fire were fun and my partner was someone I do things with so there is a possibilty that they could be put to use but its way down there on the reality check.

We need to assess what our realistic threats and weaknesses are and train towards those things. Civilians need to look at their reality as it is different than a LEO or .mil. I'm not kicking in doors or going hands on with disgruntled drunks so those are skills that are way down my priority list. I will probably have to deal with 1-4 attackers at 3-7 yards with a concealed handgun from a state of surprise, this should be my focus.

The above thoughts are mainly civilian SD related. LEO and .mil obviously have a different threat matrix and should train accordingly, competition shooters should train towards their sport as they see fit.
 

Scott Hearn

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Well ya got to be willing. If you aren't willing no amount of training in any type of defence will help, and it is hard to teach willing. If you find a school that teaches that, then you can go onto other things. If you are willing it hardly matters what you learn as long as you have a grounding in the basics of HTH and GunPlay. I figure one in 10,000 is truely willing, for the rest there always remains being alert so they can set their minds up to be willing.


Probably not going to be a popular opinion on a gun forum but here goes.....

Right after Mindset, I would have to put a premium on some type of H2H. Yes, even before firearms training. The reason I say this, is you are more likely to be engaged in an unarmed confrontation. So if you are operating on a limited budget, with limited training time, I would say your time/money investment is best spent in H2H. If your resources (and better 1/2) allow, then by all means soak in ALL of the training you can grab.

The flip side to this, and I can see this point as well (I just dont subscribe to it) is that you should put a premium on the training for the most dangerous encounter (lethal force)you are likely to find yourself in.

If you dig deep enough, you will find there are similaraties in H2H and Firearms training. You just have to find an instructor who understands both. Predator did a good job of listing those resources.
First this is a really good thread.

But I have to agree with these greatly. The small amount of training that I've had was probably about 75% H2H with edged/alternative weapons and 25% firearm. It had a great emphasis on how to transition from H2H to a weapon. It becomes really evident, really fast to someone who hasn't trained just how inaccessible your concealed gun is when you actually go FOF with someone. But like Kurt says, you gotta be ready and you don't have time to think about it. When it happens, you have to go to work right then and there AND be uglier than the ugly confronting you.
 

Prdator

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I think Brach did a really good job on describing the Civilian context of SD and CC.

I've not been in a H2H fight since high school, But I've been is Several attempted muggings, robberies, threats that I really though would end in gun play and way more than my fair share of attempted car jacking's.

I managed to get my way out of all of them by having the right mind set and " Managing Unknown Contacts" and that was before I'd ever heard of that concept.

The reason Bratch and I don't put H2H on the top of the list may have some to do with our life style, ( not that kind, unless I'm with Troy :p ) you wont find us in a bar or strip club as we have found that 99.999% of bar fights happen in Bars...

Im not saying that H2H is not important as it Really is and it's an area that Im weak in and need improvement.



So here's a question for ya'll who has been in a fight ( H2H) that they could not get out of since high school? ( Not in LEO duty) ??
 

TroyF

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I certainly respect Bratch's input, but in my 14 years as an LEO I can say that most civilian encounters do not involve any type of weapon. The incidence of civilians being acosted and assaulted with empty hands far outweighs the those of a weapon being in play.

The incidents that involve weapons are the ones that make the news. Those are the ones you are aware of. The news doesn't report unarmed assaults, partly because there are so many of them.

Statistically speaking, you are far more likely to be involved in an unarmed encounter than an armed encounter. This is what I base my stance of put the premium on what you are most likely to encounter.

If you need hard and fast numbers, I can crunch them in my office on Monday.
 

bratch

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Troy,

How many of the civilian assualts involved one or more of the three stupids, stupid people, stupid places, or stupid things? Do you think things could have turned out differently if one of the parties was willing to walk away? I could have a skewed vision of fights but I'm imagining two willing parties or an agressor and someone not willng to walk away. Have you seen many people get jumped walking to their car with no precursors, I.e. hitting on somebodies girlfriend, spilling their drink, etc? Many at resteraunts and stores or more concentrated in bars? Alcohol involved with one or both parties?

I can't remember the last time I even saw a fight let alone was involved in one.

If I have a distorted vision of threats faced I'd like to clear them up.
 

TroyF

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I've just spent the last hour on the phone with Spence talking on this very subject....

I was able to log onto a certain Police Department's database and here are the numbers for 2009-today's date. Obviously these findings are not "scientific" but this could give you some indication of what goes on out there......

I'll break these down into two categories: Incidents where lethal force would have been justified, and incidents where lethal force would not be justified.

Lethal Force Justified:
82 assaults with a dangerous weapon.
1 murder (in any degree)
82 Burglary in the 1st Degree
12 Robbery by Two or More

Lethal Force Not Justified:
164 simple assaults. These are the classic "ass whippings".
2300 reports of violent domestic abuse. (the cases where lethal force would have been justifible cases would be listed under assaults with dangerous weapons). And remember DV doesn't mean husband beating wife. It means ANYONE you have ever resided with, including roomates, family members, etc...


It is these numbers which I base my "put a premium on H2H" (which to me involves open hands, impact weapons, blades, etc). For the "average" person, I would say they are more likely to be battered by an unarmed assailant than an armed one (or one who was engaged in an activity which would require the use of lethal force).

And yes, there are numerous times when people are assaulted while minding there own business. I believe it was brother Will who says "there I was minding my own business, when all of the sudden, out of nowhere....".

So throw out Bryce Ratchford, Spencer Keepers, Troy Fullbright, Mike Brown, Mike Seeklander, Marshall Luton, Will Andrews, and the vast majortiy of people on this forum. We aren't normal. We aren't average. We have the right mindset. We are aware of our surroundings. We generally don't stumble blindly into harm's way. The way I read the OP is what does the "average" person need to focus on. And that, I say is H2H.

Another way to look at this....Southnarc is coming to OKC. His class is fundamentally a Mindset, Handling Unknown Contacts and H2H class. There are no cops enrolled in that class. It's all civilians. What does that tell you?

Everything I said could be wrong. Just one guy's opinion. And I certainly respect everyone's opinion on here. This is one helluva interesting conversation, if nothing else.
 

SteveS

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H2H is the foundation to all combat. Just because you have a gun does not mean you will be justified in using it. The use of force continuum is just as valid to a civilian as it is to an officer. The difference being a civilian can generally justify lethal force faster.

Here is my main point: You will not always legally have you firearm with you. If you go in any bank or government building you can not legally carry it with you. However, you will have these weapons: Hands, Feet, Knees, and elbows and possibly a knife. So why would you not train in H2H extensively?

While statistically you may never need to go hands on what are you going to do if that need arises?

Always defend the attack before transitioning to the firearm IMO.
 

bratch

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Troy

Looking at your numbers people should be taking classes on mate/friend selection to reduce their risk of assualt. I think that falls under Farnam's "Stupid people" rule.

A moderator on another board described risk as this; "Risk is all about plotting severity vs. likelihood or frequency of exposure. Low probability vs. catastrophic severity makes for a high risk regardless of who's involved. The best thing you can do is attempt to mitigate the risk by controlling the severity or reducing the probability." If you believe his definition (I really like it) then the lethal force encounter is our highest risk situation due to the severiety not the probability of occurance.

If we can remove the domestics, I hate removing data but it is a risk we can lower by careful selection of those we spend time with, we have 177 incidents where lethal force was justified and 164 where it wasn't, if we attribute 75% of the assualts with a dangerous weapon to domestics the numbers are 116 to 164. You numbers show a 40% increase in probability of being involved in a non lethal confrontation. The severity of the results of the lethal force encounter overwhelm the lower chance in being involved in it.

The domestics are the sticky situation; its just me and the wife so I don't forsee coming to blows with a male roommate. If she went crazy I don't think I could go hands on other than to just hold her down most likely I would try to leave. I was 100% serious about people needing to review their associate selection to lower risk.

Your numbers are interesting as they show an equal split of assualt with deadly weapon and burgulary with would demonstrate a stronger need for long gun training if that is your HD weapon of choice.

I've read the thread as practical to me, and nobody has ever called me normal but most weren't being as nice as you were with the group I was lumped into.

For the average person I would put PT at the top of the list, me included. With no PT, H2H with anybody is going to be a challenge.

Any way to get the locations of the simple assaults?

Steve S

It's been a while since I read the SDA but I don't remember banks being prohibited places.
 

TroyF

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Simple Assaults are everywhere. If there is a pattern, it involves low-light. Go to any of the crime tracker links on the news websites. Check your area. Most would be shocked to find what happens in and around their world.


If we throw out the DV data, because we "know" the assailant and can mitiage that by better association choices, then we can throw out a huge number of the A&B with Dangerous Weapons, and Burglaries, Rape, and the one Murder. Most of those are perpatrated by acquantences of the victim.
 

TroyF

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Steve's bank may have a gunbuster sticker on the door. Nothing in SDA about banks.
 

bratch

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If we throw out the DV data, because we "know" the assailant and can mitiage that by better association choices, then we can throw out a huge number of the A&B with Dangerous Weapons, and Burglaries, Rape, and the one Murder. Most of those are perpatrated by acquantences of the victim.

This is true and gets back to the point of needing to better choose who we associate with to lower our risk.

People talk about being concerned for their well being then will go out and drink with their hot head buddy,

This whole self defense thing is more than just guns and H2H but I'm preaching to the choir with that one.

I'm lucky in that I have good friends and family that are all upstanding people. I limit access to my house the riskiest I've gotten has been inviting a couple cops over.
 

TroyF

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Back to the point..... If I wish to transform myself into a Jason Bourne kinda guy, here's what I consider essential:

Essential
1. Mental/Physical Conditioning. I believe the two go hand in hand, and I cannot seperate the two.
2. Managing Unknown Contacts
3. H2H (Unarmed, Edged Weapon, Impact Weapons)
4. Pistol Skills
5. Driving Skills
6. CPR/First Aid

Meh, maybe....
1. Carbine
2. Shotgun
3. Armorers courses for your primary firearms

And for Ghits and Shiggles
1. Lockpicking
 

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