Popping shotgun cherry

[jbjoinerjr]

Guys n gals, would love some advise on a first shotgun purchase. First off I am a 150lb 5'5" guy who would probably be considered small framed. So im not interested in a shotgun thats as tall as myself. Infact, the shorter the better. It can be in non class 3 status simply because I dont want to spend an additional 200 in tax stamp and wait until im old and gray to get the friggin thing. Also I like the "tacticool" factor that most manufacturers have implemented into their lastest designs. This gun will strickly be a hobby collection to be used at the ranges and secondary home defense. Ive spent a decent amount of time on armslist and gunsamerica without much to catch my eye. I also dont shoot shotguns very often as ive never been around them much. Any imput would be nice of things to consider or a link to a site with some nice styles. Ill research whatever is posted to death cause thats how I roll before a big purchase. Thanks and I hope to hear from someone soon.

 

[Torontogosh]

As another short person, I would offer that you look at a semi-auto. As much as I love pump guns, the truth is, they have never really felt comfortable to me. Its not a deal breaker, but with a semi-auto, the fit becomes easier. In an affordable package, I like the Mossberg 935spx. They cost in the $600 ball park and are pretty fun. Another option, while being a little more expensive is the Saiga-12 shotgun. Out of the box, it's good enough, but they clean up well with the right modifications (try Carolina Shooters Supply).

If you really want a pump, I would just advise a longer for-end vs. the shorter "tactical" ones that allow for a side saddle. While I like the short forends' look and the additional rounds at the ready, it just stretches my stubby little arms out past the point of comfort. There are also some shorter/adjustable stocks that help fit as well (Hogue, Knoxx, etc).

If you really want short, there is always a pistol grip, but outside of knocking out your own teeth, I think those are best left to Hollywood.

 

[jbjoinerjr]

Thanks for the info Torontogosh. The two times ive ever shot a shotgun was once about 3 yrs ago. I dont recall the make/model, i do remember it being 3 shell max due to hunting regs and it wad semi auto. I definitely enjoyed the rapid fire ability. The second and last time ive fired a shotgun was this past Sat.at Boggyhead and it was a Siaga 12 with a 10 rnd mag which took me about 10 -12 seconds to empty the mag effectively empty the mag. Honestly it was a little more of a mule than id like to shoot for fun. It also certainly took the stockless pistol grips out of the equation lile a Moss 500 or Persuader or JIC II. I was leaning toward one of those three until I saw a fuy firing one at the range and it looked silly to try and handle in a serious manner. Like you stated it looks best in Hollywood. I will check out the one you meantioned and start saving up befpre long. I cant puah the wife too much considering she just bought me my forst can for a couple of 22's ive had for a while. Thank guy

 

[jbjoinerjr]

Sorry for all the typos, im using a mobile virtual kybd and i hate typing on it cause typos are easy. plus the screen is hard to back track on and fix corrections.

 

[11B3XCIB]

http://www.remington.com/products/firea ... round.aspx

Remington 870 Express Synthetic 7-rounder! You can pick one up for less than $350. I have an 870 Express Magnum and I can't say enough about it. I've done everything with it from home defense to bird hunting to trap shooting with ZERO failures or malfunctions of any kind, and I've owned it for just under 10 years. It's a pump gun, which basically means it's less likely to fail than a semi-auto shotgun. Not trying to start any flame wars with die-hard semi-auto guys, but pump guns have been way more reliable in my experience. The 870 family has a huge variety, so look around. Even if you spend the bare bones and get a plain 870 with a short barrel, there are kits from $50-$100 that you can add on that'll give you a collapsible stock, pistol grip and polymer foregrip. http://www.cheaperthandirt.com is a great site for those add-ons. If you can't find it there, try http://www.midwayusa.com Midway has always had ultra fast shipping when I've bought from them.

So, for $350 from Remington, you can get a 7 shell capacity, 18 inch barrel synthetic 12 gauge, and for an extra $50 bucks or so, get a collapsible stock that'll make adjustment/fine tuning based on size much easier. You won't regret it!!! I would trust my life to my 870!!

 

[jbjoinerjr]

@ 11B3XCIB,
Thank you VERY much for that informative post. It's clear you trust their product and stand by it. I have many things I swear by also and a particular shotgun is one i'd like to add to that list. I appreciate you mentioning the customability of the 870 because as a gun enthusist i'm certain you're aware that preference is what is all comes down to. First off I had no idea that the 870 was customizable. Without looking anyfurther I think you've just narrowed it down for me. The base price is without question right up my alley. The aftermarket customizing is perfect because it'll give me a reason to play with it while i'm chilling in my living room watching shows with the wife . I can also feel around for what I like best. I haven't shot a stockless pistolgrip shotgun so while I believe it looks cool, I doubt im going to enjoy it. As for my stance on semi vs pump vs under over ect, to each their own and they each serve a purpose. I hear debates non stop about revolver loading vs mag loading on pistols.... Im the guy on the fence because both have valid points.

Anyway, thanks for the post and I know what i'll be looking into now.

 

[Tigerstripe]

got my wife an 870 20 ga youth model camo and had the bbl sighted for slugs. accurate as can be and short

 

[11B3XCIB]

@ 11B3XCIB,
Thank you VERY much for that informative post. It's clear you trust their product and stand by it. I have many things I swear by also and a particular shotgun is one i'd like to add to that list. I appreciate you mentioning the customability of the 870 because as a gun enthusist i'm certain you're aware that preference is what is all comes down to. First off I had no idea that the 870 was customizable. Without looking anyfurther I think you've just narrowed it down for me. The base price is without question right up my alley. The aftermarket customizing is perfect because it'll give me a reason to play with it while i'm chilling in my living room watching shows with the wife . I can also feel around for what I like best. I haven't shot a stockless pistolgrip shotgun so while I believe it looks cool, I doubt im going to enjoy it. As for my stance on semi vs pump vs under over ect, to each their own and they each serve a purpose. I hear debates non stop about revolver loading vs mag loading on pistols.... Im the guy on the fence because both have valid points.

Anyway, thanks for the post and I know what i'll be looking into now.

Glad I could help. Remington 870s have one of the largest shotgun aftermarkets you can find, so getting an add-on or customized part is very easy and usually not super expensive. I'd look around and see which collapsible stock looks the best, or if you have some local gun stores to go to, like in the Columbia area Palmetto State Armory, you can actually see how they feel. With the 7 round model, it SHOULD come with a plug (essentially a plastic rod) that goes in the magazine tube in case you want to ever use it for hunting to limit the number if shells that can be stored in it. Make sure you take it out for home defense so you get the maximum capacity.

For home defense, I would defnitely look at either a pump or an autoloading shotgun, not an over/under. With the double barreled shotgun, you're limited to 2 shells before a reload. The way I see it, if you're using the weapon for defense, you want something that will work guaranteed, with the smallest risk of failure, especially when you need it the most. That is something you will find in a pump shotgun, not a semi auto. I have a Remington 1100 semi auto 12 gauge and I have experienced jams, failure to feed/eject, etc even with a clean gun.

Depending on your budget, some of the kits you can buy with the pistol grip, collapsiable stock, and foregrip may have a rail that you can attach a tactical light to. This is something to consider, because you may not have the budget for the tac. light right this minute, but in 2-3 months, you may decide you want something like that on your shotgun. Again, just something to think about before you buy 1 kit and wish you had gotten something else later. Look at all the options and then buy. Buyers remorse sucks!

 

[jbjoinerjr]

11B3XCIB,
Who are you telling about buyers remorse?! I know all too much what you mean. It strikes me on both ends though, first I buy anything hobby related and get home thinking man i shouldve or couldve spent that money on something NEEDED around the house. Then a month later after the novelty of my new toy wore off im saying, dangit I shouldve couldve come off that extra blank dollars and supersized my hobby . Thats life I guess. I still havent had a lot of time to dig around the market for the 870's but plan to very soon. I live north of Charleston in the Goose Creek, Ladson, Summerville area so theres a couple of shops that let you play with em and even try em before you buy em so ill be just fine. However I prefer to play around with toys with friends rather than salesmen but I have a select few salemen I know and trust. Thanks again for the help

 

[Parhams0508]

My current HD shottie is the Mossy 500, model 50575. I sold a tactical Benelli Supernova with ghost sights so that I could by my first handgun for work, so I just *had* to replace the shotty, so I got the Mossy. I went Mossberg because I could accessorize the hound out of the fool.

The 50575 has an 8 round cap and a 20" barrel. I wanted a higher capacity, so that's why I got it. Plus, the tri-rail forgrip is pretty sweet; I presently have a shorty forward grip on it, and I plan on putting a light and laser on either one of the side grips.

The gun's a bit of a beast and might not be suitable for a smaller framed guy as yourself, but I would definitely consider a pump for it's reliability.

Now, my friend's family bought his sister the Stoeger Double Defense, which is an over-under or side-by-side shottie (two round capacity) in 20 gauge. That was a pretty sweet gun, but we had issues with it not firing the second round after the first. I think Mossberg has a similar one under the Maverick line.

Where do you live: apartment, house with neighbors within spitting distance, or boonies? That will probably affect your choice in gauge, as you do not want to kill or maim those around you.

 

[jbjoinerjr]

Sorry for such long delay in reply. At the tail end of May, my wife and I took a two y/o girl into foster care so its been a bit of an adjustment for us the past few months.
In regard to your question about loctation. I wouldn't say spit distance but definately a solid rock throw away from breaking glass. I can still pee in my back yard without neighbors hearing it hit the ground through their bedroom window . Good looking out on the reason of your question though because it played a major role in my personal defense weapon. I've considered many scenarios of when ill need to use a weapon and I always consider the fact that others could be a risk to my knee jerk reaction of "thinking im hero". Many lives can change in the matter of seconds from one choice.
Also, I still haven't purchased a shotty considering we have the new child in the house and money has had other interests other than hobbies. Still in the market for one however and it'll be that "first love" moment when I get one. I'll see it, grab it, look it over, maybe even get to 3rd or 4th base on the first visit then BAM, i'll be taking it home for good. Heck, since we got the girl in the house i've only been to a gunshop once and that was to give blood for a blood drive and get a 3 month range pass that I STILL haven't used. :cry:

 

[11B3XCIB]

If you go with a 12 gauge, you can always get less-than lethal ammunition that would be considered "safer" for indoor use when you run the risk of wall penetration.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-8111

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-8113

And those are just a couple examples.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

If you go with a 12 gauge, you can always get less-than lethal ammunition that would be considered "safer" for indoor use when you run the risk of wall penetration....

Sorry, gotta disagree completely with you. Less-than-lethal ammo has absolutely no place outside of very narrow law enforcement applications (riot control, etc).

Two reasons:

1. Defensive shooting, especially when protecting one's family and children, is about neutralizing a threat, not "firing a warning shot" or "warning someone." How exactly would one be in better position using less-than-lethal ammo on the meth-head that just breached the front door at 3 a.m. and the fake ammo doesn't stop him, just makes makes him mad? Or there is more than one assailant (more and more common) and the first one has not been stopped?

Know what's behind your target and realize the risks.

2. Any defensive shooting is going to bring a storm of law-enforcement and legal scrutiny, and it is safe to say your life will change forever. There is always the chance of civil liability afterwards, especially if you leave someone with disfiguring or grevious injury (eye removed, etc) that less-than-lethal ammo can inflict.

In sum, if you're going to shoot someone, use a gun with proper ammo. Otherwise choose another weapon.

OP: Agree with the 20 guage recommendation. IIRC, Remington 870s are also available in 20GA. Their lethality is suffficient for home defense and can be used by people of most physical abilities, especially for females who not practice as much as we do. You also might want to consider that the ammo selection plays a large part in recoil. Next time you shoot a shotgun, splurge beforehand and get some good reduced-recoil defensive rounds. Another reason to use a pump-action is to be able to use these rounds reliably.

 

[11B3XCIB]

Getting popped in the chest or head with a double slug ball at 10 feet from a 12 gauge has a great chance of killing the person.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/206089.pdf

This article has statistics based on lethal vs less than lethal and how less-than-lethal munitions do not always work the way they are intended, which is to subdue for arrest. This means that 1) The person shot is NOT subdued, or 2) the person shot is killed. It says that the most common death occuring from a torso shot from <10 YARDS was a broken rib/bone puncturing the heart. A less-than-lethal kill is extremely possible in a home.

I suggested using less-than lethal munitions because IN MY OPINION, it's better than a baseball bat (standoff distance alone) and if someone doesn't want to use a gun in their home AT ALL because of the risk of wall penetration, this could be an option. Baseball bat < impact munition < lethal ammunition. Not to mention the person breaking in doesn't know you are using less-than-lethal but hears you rack a pump shotgun and sees you holding it will probably try to escape.

I would take less-than-lethal ANYDAY over a bat or my fists if I was worried about shooting my family through the walls.

Also, he could follow a couple rubber slugs with a few buckshot rounds. That would give him the deterrent first/lethal option second choice. It's not hard to shuck the rubber slug out and rechamber a real buckshot shell.

I use real ammunition. Hollow points in my pistols/revolvers and FMJs in my AKs/ARs, with buckshot or slugs in my shotgun for personal/home defense. I am also not worried about killing someone in the next room. I would seriously consider another option if I had a kid or a live-in parent. However, I would have more than ONE option, IE, rubber slugs AND real ones.

 

[Parhams0508]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU[/youtube]

Dude's beard is too legit to quit.

Anyway, I appreciate someone like him taking the time to demonstrate on perfectly good-eating meat that birdshot can be used as an HD round. But, it can sorta over penetrate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29mEJFFIvo&feature=plcp

Hope this helps.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Anyway, I appreciate someone like him taking the time to demonstrate on perfectly good-eating meat that birdshot can be used as an HD round. But, it can sorta over penetrate:

Yeah, I got ya. The urban SD round of choice for LE used to be #4 buck in 12 GA - pretty close to birdshot - due to penetration concerns. I can't count the number of patients I've seen in the ER that had residual birdshot show up incidentally on an Xray that they forgot to tell me about. So I'm here to tell you a hit with birdshot is definitely "non-lethal" in a many cases.

Incidentally, getting a little off-topic now, there is great evidence that a 223 round (AR) has much less over-penetration potential than even the standard 9mm handgun round. Still, like has been pointed out, the sound of a pump action shotgun being racked has a great deterrent effect. Thanks to Hollywood, there isn't a thug alive that doesn't know what that sound means.

 

[Paco]

Incidentally, getting a little off-topic now, there is great evidence that a 223 round (AR) has much less over-penetration potential than even the standard 9mm handgun round. Still, like has been pointed out, the sound of a pump action shotgun being racked has a great deterrent effect. Thanks to Hollywood, there isn't a thug alive that doesn't know what that sound means.

I believe that is a specific round for the .223, something like a 65gr something-tip :? Paco's memory is shot at sleep time. I shall look it up tomorrow and update my post.

 

[11B3XCIB]

The 62gr green tipped steel core penetrator 5.56mm round we use in the military is designed to enter the body, travel within while fragmenting, causing massive internal trauma, without exiting. Although, a clean throat shot or gut shot may allow a through-and-through; it takes a bone to redirect the round within the body for the intended damage to occur completely.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Here's a link written by a guy who has spent his entire career working with ballistics, specifically in an LE setting. The answer is midway through the second paragraph. Sorry for posting a link to another forum, but I don't know where he publishes elsewhere outside LE. Some of his other "stickies" are well worth reading as well.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869

 

[11B3XCIB]

Quote from the article:

From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile

No kidding. Buckshot has what, 9 00 pellets in it? 9 pellets impacting compared to one round is not an equivalent comparison. Wonder what the trauma rating for nine 62gr 5.56mm rounds is.

Kind of a pointless debate for me; I use a 7.62x39 for home defense. I have an a 5.56mm rifle and a 12 ga. in the safe, though.