Interesting twist to stand your ground laws

[Iggie]

Again, which is why I said we use a Threat Assesment Matrix to help us decide where our level of force should be. Sometimes there is no better alternative.

Believe me, we want to do things as safe as possible. For everyone. What isn't safe for the suspect, isn't safe for us either. Our jobs are not to assignable people, it is to bring them before the courts.

In most of the examples listed above, the cops were shitbags. The good guys want to go home. We don't want to shoot people. You guys make it sound otherwise.

I'm done with this thread. Peace

I for one am greatful for what LEO's and Soilders do for our country in my opinion they are both way under paid along with many other occupations that make the world both go round and a safer place by putting them selves in harms way for the sake of others. I for one have considered becoming LEO but never figured I could cut it so for everyones sake I decided against it.

Warrents in general are nesscary. I won't say mistakes don't happen because we are only human. I think that's all most of us are saying... we are playing in the what ifs. I can't deny while considering the break in possibilites, I have considered that the break in was a no knock or a knock I didn't hear/woke up too.(not because I'm doing anything illegal, or I think LEO's are bad because I don't on either at all) but mainly to figure the best way to handle said situation. Because I would have a gun in my hand aimed at said intrusion. I would like to think in such a situation I wouldn't be shot for protecting my family, and the second I confirmed that said officers were police I would lower my weapon. But... there is that moment that I couldn't even begin to train for when the door burst open to the identification of said entrant. And with crooks pretending to be no knocks I just hope said time isn't to long in either situation becuase the results would be bad on my part either way.

In finishing I am only considering the what if's and acknowledging the fact that there are bad people out there. Not saying every LEO is bad but won't deny that there may be a few out there. I am greatful for the jobs Leo's do! Even one bad experiance won't change that. But on the bettering of myself part if there is training for adressing the previously mentioned time of identification of a threat let me know. Anything to keep my family safer and to continue to be able to protect them. And not enguage a friendly, or a BG to late.

 

[Adam Striegel]

Wait, are you guys suggesting that if the LOE's serving a warrant went to the wrong house it would be OK to shoot them when they come through the door? That seems insane to me ... As an armed home owner it's a part of your responsibility to identify your target before you start taking shots.

 

[Iggie]

Wait, are you guys suggesting that if the LOE's serving a warrant went to the wrong house it would be OK to shoot them when they come through the door? That seems insane to me ... As an armed home owner it's a part of your responsibility to identify your target before you start taking shots.

Very true. But under stress, groggy, someone kicking in your door. There is high probability of mistakes. I for one make more mistakes when tired or just waken up, even more so if suddenly woken up. Will I just open fire no probally not. Heck house could be on fire and firemen running in to save the family. But door bust open first thing to come into your dead of the night vision through your busted door is a gun. No commands just the gun... I personally keep my entryway lighted to aid in identifiying the entrant. And have a flashlight next to my bed and hung through out the house. To useful not to have.

I'm just saying your not always at your best and mistakes can be made. That's all. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

 

[Adam Striegel]

Very true. But under stress, groggy, someone kicking in your door. There is high probability of mistakes. I for one make more mistakes when tired or just waken up, even more so if suddenly woken up. Will I just open fire no probally not. Heck house could be on fire and firemen running in to save the family. But door bust open first thing to come into your dead of the night vision through your busted door is a gun. No commands just the gun... I personally keep my entryway lighted to aid in identifiying the entrant. And have a flashlight next to my bed and hung through out the house. To useful not to have.

I'm just saying your not always at your best and mistakes can be made. That's all. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

I get what you're saying, but having a team of guys kick in your door screaming "police" just doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for misinterpretation. lol

 

[Iggie]

I get what you're saying, but having a team of guys kick in your door screaming "police" just doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for misinterpretation. lol

True. But....
http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-marysville-armed-robbers-sought-drugs-pretended-to-be-dea-agents-20120108,0,1047792.story
And...
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE53K00Y20090421

A couple of examples that I could find on my phone. I could get more from the home pc if power is back on when I get there.

 

[Burk Cornelius]

..... under stress, groggy, someone kicking in your door. There is high probability of mistakes. I for one make more mistakes when tired or just waken up, even more so if suddenly woken up.

Prisons (and cemeteries) are full of people who made mistakes

 

[Iggie]

Prisons (and cemeteries) are full of people who made mistakes

My point exactly. Is there quality training availble for home defense situations? That both include BG's falsely identifying them selves as LEO, target identification, force on force from within the confines such as a hallway/entryway or even worse a trailer house hallway? Something affordable to those w/ average and below average incomes?

 

[Marks45ACP]

This is interesting - my sister lives near Woodward out in the country and she was home alone one evening when cops came busting in through their back door because they had the wrong address - could have been a bad situation, her husband has a lot of guns. She was pretty shaken up - they had their guns drawn and just came right in yelling.

 

[Iggie]

This is interesting - my sister lives near Woodward out in the country and she was home alone one evening when cops came busting in through their back door because they had the wrong address - could have been a bad situation, her husband has a lot of guns. She was pretty shaken up - they had their guns drawn and just came right in yelling.

Sad it happened glad that nothing bad came of it. Mistakes happen. Doesn't make them escusable on either part.

 

[shootingbuff]

On the link it has really stupid remarks. I was worried LEOs would be targeted. That stated everyone needs to know what is law and what they can get away with.

How no-knocks came up I am not sure.

These are the facts from this thread:

1. no one wants to shoot at a LEO.
2. LEOs don't want to shoot the wrong person or maybe no one.
3. there needs to be a way/time to determine who is coming through your door and if it is LEOs are they legit
4. Warrants are good
5. There is the chance of the wrong address / person

My views you wont have to worry about any of the above if you use different tactics.
Take self out of it and process that.

Wasn't this the site someone stated they went IPSC during triannig and took out 2 tms? Having trained in Urban Warfare if one wants to kill they will have location set to do just that. The LEO is always disadvantged even with FB, smoke and TG becaue they don't kknow what they are getting into, they will be funnled, delayed and maybe even out right stoped. You will have to worry about walls, cielings, floors etc and boobytraps not ot mention, dogs, and the BGs. From this we can say glad the bad element is not motovated with any real knowledge. We can also say barraging into an unknown building with BGs is a hazard to LEOs.

As you can see different tactics not only protects the citizen (which is the job of local LEOs), but it keeps the LEO out of a high risk high danger situation as well.

Just my views. Discuss this or discard it but it is not worth getting upset about.

Oh someplaces issue warrants but they dont serve them and once a yr they give a probation period of a week I think it is for the people to pay up turn their self in etc and then they do a roundup. Minor issues I would assume.

 

[Iggie]

Everything shootingbuff says makes me angry! He's always out to start an arguement! Just kidding I think what he types is sometimes easily miss read as he opposes good things when in fact he is just giving alteritives.

I only refer to the no knock because its one that BG's are imitating. And its kind of scary thinking that they may come in screaming police but are really BG's. Now only if we could get criminals to annouce them selves...like this "I HAVE COME FOR YOU GUNS DRUGS AND MONEY, MAYBE YOUR WIFE, LIFE, AND CHILDREN, SHOOT ME OR YOU'LL LOSE EVERYTHING."

 

[300BLKAAC]

Here is the problem with no knock warrants. Too many times police skate free when they screw up on these things. More often than now they are not punished because they get special immunity because they were working. I want police held to a very stringent standard that is unbending when it comes to stuff like this. If I as a civilian (police are civilians by the way,they not military. Hence the term civil servant) can and will be prosecuted for my poor judgement involving lethal force when I should not have used it.They as individual officers should be held to at least that standard in execution of their duties. Further more administrators in law enforcement when they mistakes and send officers to the wrong home where something happens should be exposed to prosecution. There is no amount of a monetary settlement that fix the loss of a loved one because someone kicked in a door in the middle of the night and shot a parent or child who was trying to protect the family.

I have stated before I am not anti law enforcement, I am very pro law enforcement in fact. I appreciate the work honest officers put in and I am glad we have them. But I absolutely hold them to the same standard I am held to. In fact because of their job the standard has to be higher and punishment for them equal or more severe to what I would receive . Again I see the need warrants as necessary and constitutional . I question no knocks because too many legal scholars and constitutionalists find them to be spurious at best in regards to the constitution. And because the list of innocent people who have been injured or killed in their use is too high. No knock warrants are a military style tactic and our civil servants do not need to be militarized through the use of military style training and equipment. It creates a divide and creates an us versus them environment between the police and the public.

 

[shootingbuff]

This is interesting - my sister lives near Woodward out in the country and she was home alone one evening when cops came busting in through their back door because they had the wrong address - could have been a bad situation, her husband has a lot of guns. She was pretty shaken up - they had their guns drawn and just came right in yelling.

Glad she wasnt harmed.

Was there an offer of a psych treatment afterwards or at least dry cleaning for the drawers? Even if no one gets harmed the mental aspect especially for kids could be great - maybe not I am no doc.

 

[shootingbuff]

Everything shootingbuff says makes me angry! He's always out to start an argument! Just kidding I think what he types is sometimes easily miss read as he opposes good things when in fact he is just giving alternatives.

I only refer to the no knock because its one that BG's are imitating. And its kind of scary thinking that they may come in screaming police but are really BG's. Now only if we could get criminals to announce them selves...like this "I HAVE COME FOR YOU GUNS DRUGS AND MONEY, MAYBE YOUR WIFE, LIFE, AND CHILDREN, SHOOT ME OR YOU'LL LOSE EVERYTHING."

First if you are starting to understand me you need to admit yourself lol.. I just throw my views out usually as food for thought even knowing my views may not be accepted.. We all have different life experiences. Everyone can learn something from a good back and forth as long as there are open minds.

To easy to shoot or not shoot with your scenario, or as Jeff I think it was stated he is going to start wearing open hands on his shirt to indicate a no shoot lol Yet what about those other times?

 

[shootingbuff]

In the grand scheme of things someone needs to be checked if wrong information is processed as fact.

I don't think it should be the guy on the ground. He is protecting his four point of contact.

Big picture I would not expect anyone to hold fire if face to face with one in front of them with a weapon (or near enough to employ it).

Hence change of tactics and this wont be an issue.

Meth labs (think chemicals, fumes, explosion all = bad), kids (just not good), unknowns who may be or may not be involved with the bad element further would be safer as well as the LEOs if different tactics was used.

The Grand Jury will determine if something is legal or not. Sometimes it is a good thing and sometimes not. That is how our system works. it is not the LEO making law. They are following orders and it is more than not., not the guy going through the door that put the intel together for the mission. They are the one that has to make a split second choice as does a homeowner. just bad if I haven't stated it yet "when" it does happen.

 

[aestus]

This topic is a topic that people on both sides of the fence will never agree on. I personally believe that LEO's should have the option of "no knock" warrants in their arsenal to utilize when appropriate. However, I find the increased use of "no knock" warrants alarming. I think it should remain as part of LEO's toolset and it's something to consider only when nothing else will work or has worked and offers the best course of action, with minimal casualties. However, it seems LEO in general have become more complacent in using more use of force with the increased usage of tazers and pepper spray and simultaneously becoming more militaristic in doctrine and the way they handle situations. This is not a knock against specific LEO's properly trained in such areas, but just a generalization based on observation and stats showing the increase of using SWAT type units issuing warrants, increase usage of "non lethal" force, and an increase in military style equipment, weaponry and maneuvers.

Add in the fact that not all police forces are equal and like in all occupations, there's skilled people, unskilled people, good people and bad people. Unfortunately, the good police forces and LEO's are at the mercy of what the few bad seeds do, which will cause a sway in public opinion and sometimes policy. Just like how all it takes one bad shooting and the 2A becomes an issue again or why no matter how much "good" we do in the Middle-East, the actions of a few bad seeds can wreck public opinion of a whole military operation.

I live alone. I don't have kids or currently a significant other to worry about at night. If my door ever gets busted down in the middle of the night, I will be raining bullets towards whoever just forcibly entered my house with extreme prejudice. If it was a wrong "no knock" warrant performed at my house it will most likely result in my death and/or deaths and casualties for the LEO's issuing the no knock door bust unless they were able to take me down before I could react or if I was so overwhelmed that I ended up frozen with crap running down my pants, rofl. Yelling "POLICE!" while kicking the door down is not enough of a warning and I will most likely not even hear or register what's been said if I'm into survival mode running on adrenaline. Granted, I'm sure a properly trained force won't make the mistake of raiding the wrong house and will take steps to minimize this chance, but I'm more worried about getting the bubba swat team or the benchwarmer's, heh.

 

[drmitchgibson]

My point exactly. Is there quality training availble for home defense situations? That both include BG's falsely identifying them selves as LEO, target identification, force on force from within the confines such as a hallway/entryway or even worse a trailer house hallway? Something affordable to those w/ average and below average incomes?

I just bought an ax. Haven't trained with it yet, though.

 

[shootingbuff]

This topic is a topic that people on both sides of the fence will never agree on. I personally believe that LEO's should have the option of "no knock" warrants in their arsenal to utilize when appropriate. However, I find the increased use of "no knock" warrants alarming. I think it should remain as part of LEO's toolset and it's something to consider only when nothing else will work or has worked and offers the best course of action, with minimal casualties. However, it seems LEO in general have become more complacent in using more use of force with the increased usage of tazers and pepper spray and simultaneously becoming more militaristic in doctrine and the way they handle situations. This is not a knock against specific LEO's properly trained in such areas, but just a generalization based on observation and stats showing the increase of using SWAT type units issuing warrants, increase usage of "non lethal" force, and an increase in military style equipment, weaponry and maneuvers.

The comments about LEOs acting like the military has come up a couple of times. I have been thinking the military has been acting like law enforcement. Anyway allowing and issuing good gear I don't have a problem with. The use of no-knocks as above is a good thing. Using SWAT etc to roll on warrants is not a bad thing if it the situation dictates. A show of force can calm most folks.

My views are not if a no knock is legal, what gear is military, or the training. Just seems from a tactical and safety aspect for the LEOs and citizens there could, in many situations be a better solution.

Additionally when a no knock is issued the intel better be accurate. Anyone who provides intel and it is wrong needs to be dealt with.

Officer and Public safety should be the first and last thought.

 

[Jeff T.]

My views are not if a no knock is legal, what gear is military, or the training. Just seems from a tactical and safety aspect for the LEOs and citizens there could, in many situations be a better solution.

ShootingBuff,
I have no Military nor Police training, I have had a gun pointed at me with intent to harm me one time. I was not armed, I dropped and rolled under my truck and luckily survived. Now I am armed and am training to respond differently.
You have mentioned the above highlight several times. What would your suggestions be for a better Solution.

 

[300BLKAAC]

Related to this topic is this new law in the Hoosier state giving citizens the ability to rest illegal incursions .

Indiana is restoring the systems of checks and balances between govt and the citizenry. This is what I hope the beginning of a national trend.

http://sashootingins...olice-activity/

The law is designed to inhibit criminal activity from those sworn to act in societies benefit, and prevent the loss of life, property, financial means, and reputation that has been too frequently a casualty of corruption and negligence. In doing so, Indiana has helped to restore balance of power between people and government as intended by the Constitution, a precedent that will hopefully be followed by the rest of the nation.

The details of what is afforded by the law are enumerated below, and the law in its entirety may be accessed here

[background=#fcfcfc](i) A person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary to:[/background]

1. (1) protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force;
2. (2) prevent or terminate the public servant’s unlawful entry of or attack on the person’s dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle; or
3. (3) prevent or terminate the public servant’s unlawful trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person’s possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person’s immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect.
4. engaged in the lawful execution of the public servant’s official duties.

[background=#fcfcfc](k) A person is not justified in using deadly force against a public servant whom the person knows or reasonably should know is a public servant unless:[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)](1) the person reasonably believes that the public servant is:[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)](A) acting unlawfully; or[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]( not engaged in the execution of the public servant’s official duties; and[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)](2) the force is reasonably necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person.[/background]