Interesting twist to stand your ground laws

[oklaccer]

http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/shooting-at-police-now-legal-in-indiana/?cat_orig=us

I have a feeling this will be a hot topic for a while

 

[Adam Striegel]

Wow, talk about opening a can of worms ...

So you could shoot and kill a cop on your land, then argue that you felt it was an illegal trespass? He won't be around to argue against it ...

 

[oklaccer]

Of course, when a cop is coming thru your door, there will probably be quite a few more right behind him. Even if they have the wrong address, I 'm not sure I would start the shooting. Wouldn't want to be dead right.

 

[Adam Striegel]

City cops yeah, but the county sheriff guys usually run solo. Friend of mine works the night shift as a deputy and he responds to calls all the time by himself.

Pretty scary ...

 

[300BLKAAC]

Of course, when a cop is coming thru your door, there will probably be quite a few more right behind him. Even if they have the wrong address, I 'm not sure I would start the shooting. Wouldn't want to be dead right.

True that no knock (unconstitutional) warrants have caused many innocent people to be murdered by the police over the years. Like you however I would like to be alive if possible to at the end of the encounter.

City cops yeah, but the county sheriff guys usually run solo. Friend of mine works the night shift as a deputy and he responds to calls all the time by himself.

Pretty scary ...

State Troopers respond to calls alone also

 

[TroyF]

Where are you getting that "No Knock" warrants are Unconstitutional?

 

[KeithCross]

Wow...I thought the open carry thing was interesting...

I don't like it. Did you scroll down and read the comments under the article? Very scary what our nation has become. Yeah, occasionally there are "bad cops," but this whole "screw the police" mentality we're seeing so much of lately is just wrong.

"America! America! God mend thine every flaw, Confirm thy soul in self-control, Thy liberty in law!"

 

[Adam Striegel]

Wow...I thought the open carry thing was interesting...

I don't like it. Did you scroll down and read the comments under the article? Very scary what our nation has become. Yeah, occasionally there are "bad cops," but this whole "screw the police" mentality we're seeing so much of lately is just wrong.

"America! America! God mend thine every flaw, Confirm thy soul in self-control, Thy liberty in law!"

Yeah, it bugs me too... There have been a bunch of BS lawsuits against our police department lately that's putting a lot of financial strain on the city and lessens the trust the people have with our LEO's.

 

[shootingbuff]

First if I don't kow who is barging in, I should not be at fault for defending my family so I don't like the change.

Second no knocks to me = poor tactics.

Third no one should think they have a right to ambush anyone be it a LEO or other.

I would like to think there would never be a wrong person or wrong location. In the case of a no lnock the LEOs should be held accountable and do everything they can to hold fire to make damn sure the occupents are given plenty of time to understand it is LEOs.

Better tactics a traffic stop, waiting at the favorite hangout etc away from a siege situation and allows the alleged BG understanding they are being taken down.

Some of the responses are wacked as in the OC thread.

Those are my views and how I feel about it.

 

[TroyF]

I have served many a "no knock" in my day. Sometimes that type of service is required. Is a traffic stop service a better deal? Maybe. It all depends on the suspect. Generally a "no knock" is granted when there is an overwhelming chance of gunplay, explosives, etc. When the safest way to do service is to be quick and sneaky. My Team's preferred tactic is to surround and call out. However, that is not reasonable in all circumstances.

To blanket all no knock search warrants as a bad thing is simply to be misinformed. And that is okay, I get that. The news only reports our failures and not our successes. But when you are the guy behind the gun, approaching a door behind which is a housefull of bad bad men...... you'll take comfort in knowing that you are trained, equipped, and have an element of surprise.

There is a difference between the run of the mill "SWAT" team and a professional Tactical Unit. On my Teams we use a Threat Assessment Matrix, that justify the use of the team in the first place, and guide you thru the type of service that is required. You will be hard pressed to find a sketchy record of shootings with a real team. I can tell you in my opinion that are only six "real" teams in Oklahoma. I wont name them here, for the sake of hurting people's feelings.

The teams that get into trouble are the teams that are thrown together. Half-assed. Those are the teams that have left a bad taste in your mouths.

 

[Dustin Cantrell]

If anybody busts down my door, I'm shooting anybody that comes through it. Obviously, if it were LEOs and they identified themselves, I'd let them come through and once verified that they are in fact LEOs I would disarm myself and let them do what they needed to do. What if it were LEOs serving a warrant and they had the wrong house? I'm sure that's happened. I have some pieces of **** living around me so it's feasible that the police could be targeting the house next door or one across the street. If they got the address wrong and busted down my door and I shot them, would I be charged under current Oklahoma law? In that situation, they would be LEOs on my property illegally. I have a great relationship with LEOs, so don't take my question the wrong way. 99.999% of LEOs are good people. Never come across one myself that wasn't great and I work with them often.

 

[300BLKAAC]

Where are you getting that "No Knock" warrants are Unconstitutional?

Aside from the fact that MANY not some MANY constitutional and legal scholars find them to not meet constitutional litmus. They go against what the founders intended. The British made frequent use of no knock warrants and warrants issued ad hoc to forcibly enter homes.

Another aside is that no knock warrants deprive innocent people of their life and liberty when "mistakes" happen.

A few statistics for you there were 3,000 no knock warrants served in 1981 , in 2005 there were over 50,000. Since the 1980's 40 innocent bystanders have been murdered in no knock warrants where the warrant was served illegally on the residence of innocent people via a mistake or bad information being used to obtain the warrant. Many many more innocent people are the victims of no knock warrants where thank God there was not a fatality. No knock warrants deprive people of life, liberty and due process when those people were innocent yet their homes were invaded illegally by police.

Its also becoming an increasing trend for criminals to use the guise of no knock warrants for home invasions so they take people off guard. I find the doctrine that was rationalized to show legality to be flawed and if you read the constitution its clear that was not ever intended.

There many times in the case of violent criminals when another means of arrest would have been better suited that would have minimized the danger to the public and prevented loss of life and injury.

Examples

• Kathryn Johnston (c1914-2006) was an elderly Atlanta, Georgia woman shot by three undercover police officers in her home on November 21, 2006 after she fired one shot at the ceiling, assuming her home was being invaded. While the officers were wounded by friendly fire, none of the officers received life threatening injuries, but Johnston was killed by their gunfire.[1]​
• Two former Los Angeles Police Department officers, along with 13 others, have plead guilty to running a robbery ring, which used fake no-knock raids as a ruse to catch victims off guard. The defendants would then steal cash and drugs to sell on the street. This tactic led Radley Balko, editor of Reason Magazine, to complain "So not only can you not be sure the people banging down your door at night are the police, not only can you not be sure they’re the police even if they say they’re the police, you can’t even be sure it’s safe to let them in even if they are the police."[3]​[4]​[5]​

• Tracy Ingle was shot in his house five times during a no-knock raid in North Little Rock, Arkansas. After the police entered the house Tracy thought armed robbers had entered the house and intended to scare them away with a non-working gun. The police expected to find drugs, but none were found. He was brought to the intensive care, but police pulled him out of intensive care for questioning, after which they arrested him and charged him with assault on the officers who shot him.[6]​[7]​

• Ismael Mena, a Mexican immigrant, was shot and killed by SWAT team officers in Denver, Colorado who were performing a no-knock raid that was approved by a judge acting on false information contained in a search warrant. The police believed there to be drugs in the house, but no drugs were found on the premises, and it was later revealed that the address given to the SWAT team by officer Joseph Bini was the wrong one. Jefferson County District Attorney Dave Thomas investigated the matter and cleared the officers involved with the raid on the grounds that Mena had pointed a gun and fired it at SWAT officers, although who fired first remains unknown. However, many have objected to the investigation's findings due to inconsistencies in the various officers' account of what happened. The American Civil Liberties Union, and others, have objected to the Denver Police Department's request for a no-knock raid and the Judge's decision to allow such a raid on the grounds that they failed to meet the criteria necessary for a no-knock raid.[8]​

• US Marine Jose Guerena was shot twenty-two times by a SWAT team planning to execute a search warrant. He retrieved a legally possessed rifle in response to sudden intruders, likely concerned for his family's safety, and the SWAT team opened fire on him before establishing any communication. The team later retracted its initial claims he had opened fire when it was established that Guerena had never fired and his safety was still on. Members of the SWAT team subsequently hired legal defense and a large following of fellow Marines held a memorial service at his home with his widow.

 

[TroyF]

And the same can be said for knock and announce warrants. Mistakes are made their too.
The difference is in the training and professionalism of the Team. Pure and simple.

So let's do this......the Police just don't serve anymore warrants. No Knock or otherwise. Have fun with that.

 

[shootingbuff]

Troy,

Fully understand where you are coming from on all accounts. It is the possibility of an oops which has happened that makes me think other ways are better; at least no knock during normal waking hours with eyes on that says the person/s are there and wishfully no kids.

Picking someone up as they are walking back to their car while occupied especially the hands or a traffic light bump, parking lot fender bender, in the head with their hands full, at home with the annoying magazine sellers or those dressed in black and white. Waiting to block the vehicle where ever, the damsel in distress. Imagination is the key. Even a phone call saying the cops are 10 min out so they try and run out the door. .Again imagination.

I had a fuller initial response but I lost it so posted the short one. Officer safety - got it. When did putting a citizens life in danger become common place? Okay the chance of placing the wrong citizen in danger? No dig, just a view.

No I don't want LEOs from OK, TX, AR, NM and Feds that I know, or any other be at risk. At least undo risk. Some don't chase motorcycles becasue of the possible loss of life. I think most have ROE/SOP on pursuit as well as the area they are in. Why not apply that same logic to no knocks?

Again just my views, not knocking LEOs at all and hope I didn't come across that way. I just think verified and double checked intel with a little eyes on and some imagination is better than the wee hr no knock and would be safer for all concerned. With home invasions etc why would one not be expected to try and defend their home? Then it gets to be each returned fire, fire was exchanged and remember it doesn't matter who is shooting at you becasue they are the BG. That goes for LEO and joe snuffy.

The possibility is there as has been demonstrated, so why not expand the tactics and change SOP for everyones safety?

Some will be against it just because, and some will be for it becasue that is what they learned and train for. Doing the wrong thing over and over and hoping for a good outcome each time is wishful thinking at best as well as a liability waiting to happen.

I hope you and your co-workers the best.

 

[okiestranger]

I have two dogs one stays outside the other in my living room. When i hear then barking at night I take my pistol with me to check things out. I have never thought about a situation like this. I can understand the need for both knock and no knock warrants. This is a scary situation because there has been several armed invasions in my town. I am by all means a law abiding citizen and would have never thought it would be police busting down my door on a wrong address. Can't say as to what I would do. But even holding a pistol would put your life in danger.

 

[TroyF]

Again, which is why I said we use a Threat Assesment Matrix to help us decide where our level of force should be. Sometimes there is no better alternative.

Believe me, we want to do things as safe as possible. For everyone. What isn't safe for the suspect, isn't safe for us either. Our jobs are not to assignable people, it is to bring them before the courts.

In most of the examples listed above, the cops were shitbags. The good guys want to go home. We don't want to shoot people. You guys make it sound otherwise.

I'm done with this thread. Peace

 

[okiestranger]

I hope my post did not come off as offensive or anti police. I have the up most respect and gratitude for anyone willing to step in the way of harm for me and my family.

 

[shootingbuff]

Troy,

I, any way hope I didn't come across that way. All I have stated is the chance is there,

Having the matrix is great and it adds clarity to the situation - got it and understand.

I got a little blur on my sig line about LEOs if you wonder how I feel about them.

Be safe,

 

[300BLKAAC]

I have nothing against police I think they serve a proper and necessary function in society. They help to maintain law and public peace as they should. FWIW our forebearers saw a need for constabulary as well.

I commend law enforcemt for doing a tough job that is often thaness and I support law enforcemt any way I can.

What I question and what many people in our society now see is the increasing militarization of civil law enforcement. This includes tactics like no knock warrants. I do see a need for there to be warrants in our system of laws so that there is a proper and just application of justice in our society.

For those that keep us safe thanks

 

[jtischauser]

I never heard of no knock warrants nor has anything like this crossed my mind previously. I guess I kinda liken it to the ear in terror over in Afghanistan. When our boys in uniform are going after some real bad dudes occasionally they get it wrong and an innocent bystanders or two gets in the cross fire.

Like Troy said lets try not serving anymore warrants and see how that goes.