IDPA attire

[poopgiggle]

Not to be a prick here.... but your gonna have to show me where IDPA promotes its game as " training". Methinks you're confusing Mas Ayoobs opinions about the value of the game.

The whole reason the sport was founded was that IPSC had gotten too far away from "practical" shooting, and the founders wanted something closer to real-world concealed carry. Justifications for rule changes frequently involve language like "in an actual gunfight..." Maybe the phrase "concealed carry training" was wrong, but the sport is definitely billed as a venue where actual duty/carry gear is welcome and competitive. I understand why some people think that AIWB should be allowed (I'm a junk carrier myself) but I also understand why it's a safety issue.

And I respect IDPA. It's just that some of the culture within the sport is hilarious and I like to laugh at it. USPSA is hilarious in its own way too.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

The whole reason the sport was founded was that IPSC had gotten too far away from "practical" shooting, and the founders wanted something closer to real-world concealed carry. Justifications for rule changes frequently involve language like "in an actual gunfight..." Maybe the phrase "concealed carry training" was wrong, but the sport is definitely billed as a venue where actual duty/carry gear is welcome and competitive. I understand why some people think that AIWB should be allowed (I'm a junk carrier myself) but I also understand why it's a safety issue.And I respect IDPA. It's just that some of the culture within the sport is hilarious and I like to laugh at it. USPSA is hilarious in its own way too.

Thanks... the english major in me sees a gap between training and game.

When Hackethorn and the others pulled away to create IDPA it was because PPC and the extant games of the times had become " impractical" in a real world sense. Of course, these where the heady days of Col Cooper and Jim Cirrilo who had " wrote the book" along with Bill Jordan, Skeeter Skelton and some bona fide dangerous men who survived the 30's, the Border, WW2, and " invented the modern doctrine of the handgun.......

If Jelly Bryce was still alive, he'd be laughing at all of us.

 

[michaelclm]

ame="Michael Ray" post="175686" timestamp="1393770639"]Shenanigans![/quote
a positive or negative shenanigans? Pulled it right out of the rulebook.....

I was calling shenanigans on them.

Either he thinks it's bullshit that a sport that promotes itself as concealed carry training outlaws a very popular method of carry, or he thinks that IDPA is right to avoid the potential liability of idiots shooting themselves in the dick at matches.USPSA is all about freedom though. Freedom to move, shoot, and reload however you like. And freedom to shoot yourself in the dick.

Bullshit. Bullshit was the answer we were looking for. We would also have accepted ridiculous.

Of course I also think it's bullshit that you're made to dry hump your cover/concealment.

PS - I haven't heard of anybody shooting himself in the dick, but I have heard of folks getting ahead of themselves drawing from the hip and shooting themselves in the thighs, calves, and feet. So when you say "idiot" are you referring to folks who carry appendix, on the whole, or just the ones who shoot themselves on the drawstroke? Because it sounds to me like there are more idiots drawing from the hip who are potential liabilities to IDPA than those drawing from the appendix.

ETA: I see that you're an appendix guy but my point still stands. I fail to see how a substantial liability is represented by the carry method in and of itself.

 

[poopgiggle]

PS - I haven't heard of anybody shooting himself in the dick, but I have heard of folks getting ahead of themselves drawing from the hip and shooting themselves in the thighs, calves, and feet. So when you say "idiot" are you referring to folks who carry appendix, on the whole, or just the ones who shoot themselves on the drawstroke? Because it sounds to me like there are more idiots drawing from the hip who are potential liabilities to IDPA than those drawing from the appendix.

ETA: I see that you're an appendix guy but my point still stands. I fail to see how a substantial liability is represented by the carry method in and of itself.

Of course I'm not calling everyone who carries AIWB stupid, but it looks like you got that.

The femoral artery is right there when you draw from appendix. That's a substantially worse thing to hit than a foot or thigh meat.

I'm just saying I understand both sides of the argument.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

I was calling shenanigans on them.
Bullshit. Bullshit was the answer we were looking for. We would also have accepted ridiculous.
Of course I also think it's bullshit that you're made to dry hump your cover/concealment.
PS - I haven't heard of anybody shooting himself in the dick, but I have heard of folks getting ahead of themselves drawing from the hip and shooting themselves in the thighs, calves, and feet. So when you say "idiot" are you referring to folks who carry appendix, on the whole, or just the ones who shoot themselves on the drawstroke? Because it sounds to me like there are more idiots drawing from the hip who are potential liabilities to IDPA than those drawing from the appendix.
ETA: I see that you're an appendix guy but my point still stands. I fail to see how a substantial liability is represented by the carry method in and of itself.

Mike Ray... it took how many years for the Church to quit burning heretics after they proved the Earth was round...

Appendix carry almost made it last time.... if enough people keep asking for it the rule will change.

 

[michaelclm]

Agreed that the femoral artery represents a risk. Transecting the thigh and penetrating the artery is still a risk from the hip, albeit less so. I just don't think that it's cause to prohibit a method of carry with substantial defensive viability.

Sorry to keep pushing the train further off the rails.

 

[ChrisC]

You ain't crap if your vest isn't covered in rhinestones

 

[poopgiggle]

Sorry to keep pushing the train further off the rails.

Once the original objective of the thread has been fulfilled I think it's fair play.

If IDPA had elected to allow junk carry in the new rulebook I probably would have started shooting it in earnest again. I would love to shoot IDPA as I actually carry instead of using a giant derpy vest.

Speaking of AIWB, what holsters do people like?

 

[Dancer4Life]

I use a FoxX IWB holster for my g36. It works really well and pretty comfy.

 

[mtnman1]

Once the original objective of the thread has been fulfilled I think it's fair play.

If IDPA had elected to allow junk carry in the new rulebook I probably would have started shooting it in earnest again. I would love to shoot IDPA as I actually carry instead of using a giant derpy vest.

Speaking of AIWB, what holsters do people like?

Bravo concealment is where its at for IWB. Positive retention and comfy for appendix or strong side.

 

[michaelclm]

I'm in an INCOG until I find something new. I was wearing one of Troy's Triple Crown holsters (a little custom job he worked up for me, then the tuckable belt loop broke). I got the INCOG for the purpose of reviewing it but Mom said if you don't have anything nice to say....

 

[MetropolisLakeOutfitters]

Not to be a prick here.... but your gonna have to show me where IDPA promotes its game as " training".

Why else would they give a flying rip about shooting from behind cover?

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Why else would they give a flying rip about shooting from behind cover?

Argumentative... overruled.

if I made a "game" out of shooting marbles it would have rules. In this case the "game" requires elements of cover and concealment and the games sponsers have stated rules to modifiy the behavior of the games adherents while playing said game.

If you dont like the game- don't play it. After all... base ball has the DH and basketball came up with the 3 point line and a shot clock. I don't care for AL baseball and since the full court press went the way of the dinosaur I don't watch basketball. End. Of. Story.

 

[MetropolisLakeOutfitters]

if I made a "game" out of shooting marbles it would have rules. In this case the "game" requires elements of cover and concealment and the games sponsers have stated rules to modifiy the behavior of the games adherents while playing said game.

Their own mission statement says it is "based on simulated self-defense scenarios".

Their stated fundamental principals includes "test skills that could be required to survive life-threatening encounters".

Their principals list includes the statement "At its core, IDPA is a self-defense scenario based sport."

Last but not least:
"1.3.3.1. One issue critical to the long-term success of this shooting discipline is that problems shooters are
asked to solve must reflect self-defense principles. The IDPA founders agreed upon this when they set
out to structure IDPA guidelines and principles. IDPA should help promote basic sound gun handling
skills and test skills a person would need in a concealed-carry encounter. Requirements such as the use
of cover while engaging a target, reloading behind cover, and limiting the number of rounds per string
were all based upon that principle."

http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/g0hunysc.eoc.pdf

How can you say it's not intended to be "training" when their own statements in the public rule book say that it is intended to help promote skills you need in a self defense situation? Their own statements show that they didn't intend for it to be some made up game with arbitrary rules pulled out of somebody's rear end.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Their own mission statement says it is "based on simulated self-defense scenarios".

Their stated fundamental principals includes "test skills that could be required to survive life-threatening encounters".

Their principals list includes the statement "At its core, IDPA is a self-defense scenario based sport."

Last but not least:
"1.3.3.1. One issue critical to the long-term success of this shooting discipline is that problems shooters are
asked to solve must reflect self-defense principles. The IDPA founders agreed upon this when they set
out to structure IDPA guidelines and principles. IDPA should help promote basic sound gun handling
skills and test skills a person would need in a concealed-carry encounter. Requirements such as the use
of cover while engaging a target, reloading behind cover, and limiting the number of rounds per string
were all based upon that principle."

http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/g0hunysc.eoc.pdf

Based on "self defense scenarios". Ok... last I looked, just about any 1st shooter video games have been based on "military tactics" and many could be marketed on "solving real world tactical problems" and NOT ONE OF US would ever consider that game to be a valid "military tactical training".

If you had ever been to any police basic markmanship training the argument could be made (based on the merit of what we know about pistol tactics) that that "training" is not - training.

If you feel that strongly about this patented misrepresentation how bout you pound off a scathing email (or two) to Joyce Wilson.

How can you say it's not intended to be "training" when their own statements in the public rule book say that it is intended to help promote skills you need in a self defense situation? Their own statements show that they didn't intend for it to be some made up game with arbitrary rules pulled out of somebody's rear end

Try that one in court.... wow, metaphor is lost on some folks. As soon as you put a timer on any activity it becomes a game when the "winner" is the fastest or the hi point person in a contest. What is a game? Come out to Vegas- a booking can lay odds down for nose picking. If you can measure an outcome every thing may become a game. If that game reflects aspects of a training discipline or doctrine it's still a game.

Again--- if you don't care to play - don't worry about it.

 

[Matt1911]

I ate some stuffed crust pizza yesterday. Delicious is how I would describe it.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

I was calling shenanigans on them.

Bullshit. Bullshit was the answer we were looking for. We would also have accepted ridiculous.

Of course I also think it's bullshit that you're made to dry hump your cover/concealment.

PS - I haven't heard of anybody shooting himself in the dick, but I have heard of folks getting ahead of themselves drawing from the hip and shooting themselves in the thighs, calves, and feet. So when you say "idiot" are you referring to folks who carry appendix, on the whole, or just the ones who shoot themselves on the drawstroke? Because it sounds to me like there are more idiots drawing from the hip who are potential liabilities to IDPA than those drawing from the appendix.

ETA: I see that you're an appendix guy but my point still stands. I fail to see how a substantial liability is represented by the carry method in and of itself.

We fixed that here. About 7 local active LEO's shoot our matches. All get odd looks when they shoot from "behind cover" with proper modern methods. All get odd looks when they reload, all get some odd looks about a lot of things that are not adressed or adressed in an obsolete fashion in the rule book... and these 7 guys tend to be high shooters every match.

On a barricade... good form says shoot with some space... you can see better, shoot faster and dont run into issues with bullets following a flat surface to hit you... the richochet will open the angle and being back from the "corner" will be to the shooters advantage.

All the old guys thought it was nuts.... now most of the old guys do it that way. If you shoot with a club that wan't to argue it --- take the procedural and shoot faster, you will win anyway.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

I ate some stuffed crust pizza yesterday. Delicious is how I would describe it.

Odds are you ate four slices. I bet you saved the crust on the last two.

 

[Matt1911]

Odds are you ate four slices. I bet you saved the crust on the last two.

Negatory, crust disappeared on all four. You obviously don't know the capacity of my belly

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Negatory, crust disappeared on all four. You obviously don't know the capacity of my belly

Now you have a history and can be handicapped, Matt. :mail: