Shotgun Pro Tip from Patrick Kelley

[KurtM]

I try to stay away from barricades if at all possible so I am not getting what you are saying when you say you need a perfect stance in conjunction with a barricade. It doesn't mean anything to me cause I don't do that. I also try to shoot as much stuff on the move as possible, so can you please tell me what your stance is when you do that?

When you say stance, my mind's eye sees Danny Glover in Leathal Weapon. You know where he draws, then moves his feet just so, then does the neck swivel thing....and then FINALLY aims and presses off the shot. From what I timed from the film it took him almost 3 seconds to get off his perfect stance shot, in that amount of time assuming comfortable .18 splits and a moderate 1 second draw, he would have garnered himself 11.11 hits from a high A class shooter, around 7 from a D class shooter. My stance is not to let a stance slow me down.

I know all the books and videos teach STANCE, STANCE, STANCE, but I don't and one of my students won the $50,000 3-Gun Nation shoot of in Vegas this year. On the street you well seldom have the time or warning to be in a "perfect stance" when it is time to dance...so why practice from it?

 

[shootingbuff]

Stance - That is why I switched from stance to stance form/ good enough /adequate stance etc. Because that is what I think it is about adequate stance form etc. but to "know" how much (of course if not on the move) to use takes experience. I would rather error on to much than not enough from a static position.

Barricades - if one has to shoot around a barricade without latitude to move to the outside of the barricade, again a static position though this time possibly having to lean out and around. Of course multiple targets makes the difference. just a couple of shots and anything can get you past them. Say 5 or more and I think the stance/ form has more impact. In other words someone that may be off balance from an awkward position needs to improve their stance/ form before they start to shoot not after they started shooting or allow their self to be rocked back possibly slowing their engagement/s The stance /form they have wont equate to a good enough stance /form or to speed - just the opposite. How often this comes up I can not say I am sure with yours, Pats and JT's knowledge along with others all will have a better idea than I though I believe in train to your weakness.

While you are moving do you always shoot off of the same foot? If not can you tell the difference or ever ran some drills to see which was better for you? Do you try and stay with your weight fwd? Do you find yourself slowing down on multiple targets that are close to each other? Not your awesome ability to hose , but your speed of movement?

Reason is I would think you mostly shoot off of the same foot. I would think you keep your weight somewhat forward and slow just a touch on multiple targets that are near each other. If so, this would indicate you are insuring you have adequate stance / form for the shooting conditions. I look at this as having enough of a sight picture for the size and distance to the target. You try and have enough with a minimal amount of slowing down. Because one can rip sub .13 splits doesn't mean they do that with each pair. The conditions have to be right to do it. I think this would be the same with stance / form. In some cases a better stance is a must and others you can have less of a stance.

When I refer to stance I am not talking about the perfect pointer but weight fwd, knee flexed a bit, and into the gun from a fixed position where I see shooters getting rocked for apparently no reason other than poor stance /form. Shooting on the move is not what I was referring initially and my apologies for not making that statement early on. I articulate about like a 3 cly engine running rough. Again I appreciate you fellas sharing your fast knowledge.

 

[shootingbuff]

I try to stay away from barricades if at all possible so I am not getting what you are saying when you say you need a perfect stance in conjunction with a barricade. It doesn't mean anything to me cause I don't do that. I also try to shoot as much stuff on the move as possible, so can you please tell me what your stance is when you do that?

When you say stance, my mind's eye sees Danny Glover in Leathal Weapon. You know where he draws, then moves his feet just so, then does the neck swivel thing....and then FINALLY aims and presses off the shot. From what I timed from the film it took him almost 3 seconds to get off his perfect stance shot, in that amount of time assuming comfortable .18 splits and a moderate 1 second draw, he would have garnered himself 11.11 hits from a high A class shooter, around 7 from a D class shooter. My stance is not to let a stance slow me down.

I know all the books and videos teach STANCE, STANCE, STANCE, but I don't and one of my students won the $50,000 3-Gun Nation shoot of in Vegas this year. On the street you well seldom have the time or warning to be in a "perfect stance" when it is time to dance...so why practice from it?

Like the part about DG and his stance. I had forgot about that. Truly funny when you bring it up.

 

[KurtM]

No I don't shoot off of one foot. I will shoot at anytime in the stride ( left foot, right foot, foot in the air, foot just landing, foot just pushing off). I actually rear weight a bit kind of drop my weight over my heals with my knees slightly bent (This IS NOT leaning back, this allows the upper body to act as the turret of the tank). The only time I slow down is if I am getting too far past the targets and starting to worry about the 180 (street wouldn't care) I try not to shoot "splits" I am more of a cadance shooter, so it is hard to tell when I transition as it all goes the same speed...or thats what I try to do. Sometimes I do find myself shooting pairs and I really beat myself up when I do. I mean no offence here, but the stuff you describe is the old 1980s style of shoot and move as propounded by most books and video and gun magazines....we have gone WAY past that and someone needs to let them know.

When shooting around a barracade and you find yourself off ballance???? You should already be doing support side shooting, if you didn't realise this when you looked at it shame on you. As for shooting around them at multiple targets you will do far better being relaxed and comfortable than setting up for the one target that is the hardest to get to. When you say possibly leaning out, how is that part of your stance? Seems that that would make my point not yours.

I spend a lot of time on being bilateral, I've got to be able to teach it that way and I find it very useful in match shooting as well. Stay off barracades, they seldom offer the support you thought, they can fall over on you, shake with each recoil throwing off your aim, and bounce in general. They make you sedentary, they force you into positions you shouldn't be in and "worst case" they are bullet magnets and help funnel bullets right tward you if you are too near the "wall"

 

[Deathtrap]

And can change the poi on your slugs........ As I found out last weekend

 

[P.E. Kelley]

Kids...WE are getting first rate class time with Kurt for free...this is way cool!

Listening to (reading) Kurt's stuff has me better understanding what I really do.
I do drive from a power stance when "planted for an array" but as he said that goes out the window when moving and shooting, which is something I do know how to do (so obviously I must use the relaxed technique) But then again Kurt is reading my mind when he talks about stopping and getting back into position (I have done that!) We should never stop examining why we do what we do. Further, those who can really explain what they do make the best instructors. To be able to do that in print on demand via the internet means Kurt is one of the best.

Thanks my friend!
PK

 

[KurtM]

Ahhh Pat my Facial Hair 3-gunning amigo you are way too kind. Matter of fact in my orriginal post I started to say that you only do that with a shotgun which is what I have observed over the years, and you would think you would also do it with your M-14...But you are truely a multi facited shooter cause with the "other two" you tend to be more relaxed. Does this matter? Kind of like Jesse's "help me load better" video at those speeds does it matter? I say not. Both win, but what makes an exceptional shooter is the ability to make a accurate shot at anytime, under any condition, from ANY position planed or not, and that my friend is why you are one of the best in west!

In case you all don't know, Pat is one of two folks in the U.S. that has more major match wins than lots of other folks combined, somewhere north of 35 or so. There is one other guy with those kind of numbers, and then the next closest is Taran. when Pat talks....I listen. (Now we are talking 3-Gun here, cause Jerry, Robbie and Todd all have those as well, but in 3-gun those are the kings.)

 

[jspeligene]

Geez this is a great thread...I feel like a kid in a candy store. Thank you guys for spending the time to share this information. It provides a lot of insight for me and I'm sure a lot of others as well.