Which shotgun loads for home defense - birdshot?

TheGriff · Oct 6, 2013

I find this site pretty interesting: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

I find #5 to be very true

Here is an excerpt from the end of that article.

Lessons learned:
1. Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to "fragment" when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not.

It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls.

Now, before anyone says it, No, I do not know how much damage they would do to someone after the 4th wall. But they would do some damage as they were still penetrating.

2. Remington 55 grain JSP and Frangible 5.56 also penetrated all 4 walls. So did the .30 Carbine.

When shooting rifles, walls are concealment, not cover.

3. 00 Buck penetrates 4 walls with ease. It is a great "Stopping" round, but there is a price to pay.

Until someone invents a "Phaser" like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls.

4. Birdshot does not excessively penetrate drywall walls. But it does not penetrate deeply enough to reach a bad guy's vital organs. Birdshot makes a nasty but shallow wound. It is not a good Stopper.

Use Birdshot for little birds. Use 00 Buckshot for bad guys.

5. The sun was shining, it was a lovely day, and it was fun shooting stuff.

Thanks to my friends for the ammo to test. Thanks to Tman and our friend Richard who was visiting from out of town, for the pics.

Avtomat-Acolyte · Oct 6, 2013

Acecool said:
An AR would be better. You have more rounds, less recoil, and due to the high velocity of the 5.56 NATO round it should disintegrate on impact of sheet-rock. At least that's what I'm told. I want to test it at the range sometime just to get an idea of how much penetration to expect...

Old_Painless already did it for you with "The Box of Truth"

bigfutz · Oct 7, 2013

"It's all about shot placement" goes both ways. And using walls for cover goes both ways too. Good defensive hollowpoint ammo (rifle or pistol) should never hit the wall (unless you want it to.) Buckshot from a defensive length shotgun may be more likely to produce strays than would a rifle or pistol.

Hey, did we ever answer the actual question?

Avtomat-Acolyte · Oct 7, 2013

bigfutz said:
Hey, did we ever answer the actual question?

Yes. Birdshot is meant for birds and other animals the size of birds. Buckshot is meant for bucks and other animals the size of bucks.

Furthermore, we have established that people that blithely and categorically deny limitless, scientific and repeatable evidence that birdshot is a horrible selection for self defense are either deliberately indifferent to reality or are so disconnected with the universe around them that they should probably be adjudicated mentally defective.

11B3XCIB · Oct 7, 2013

I use an AR or other 5.56 caliber rifle for HD along with whatever concealed carry gun I had that day on the nightstand. I do have a shotgun that I could access that has 00 buckshot and slugs on hand but I guess that's more of a fall back than a primary. I say again...I use buckshot and slugs but I did find this video interesting:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU

If you don't care to watch it, it's a guy shooting sides of pork with birdshot and showing how it cuts through a pretty nice channel in the meat. Without testing on a person, I feel like a slab of meat and bone provides better results than water jugs and cardboard

Avtomat-Acolyte · Oct 7, 2013

Oh my god, now you've done it.

jfeenin · Oct 12, 2013

FWIW on the AR topic, the tests I recall indicated that the only AR load that worked well in a home defense load without over-penetrating were light 52gr hpbt bullets. 55gr and larger (IE XM193), especially FMJ behaved exactly as they did in the box of truth. Which BTW is an awesome site. Have I personally tried to test any of this? Nope. I am not going to either. I think the reality on this topic is simply that each option has its pluses and minuses and each persons preferences and situation both in what firearm they feel comfortable with and where their house is located, how it's laid out, how their neighborhood is laid out all determine which option is best for any given situation. None of these options is going to be the perfect answer for any situation the best you can do is what feels best for your particular situation then hope that you never have to test your theory.

That's just my 2 cents and it comes with a 100% money back guarantee for what you paid to read it LOL. :lol:

TheGriff · Oct 12, 2013

11B3XCIB said:
I feel like a slab of meat and bone provides better results than water jugs and cardboard

I agree with this. I was trying to address the "due to the high velocity of the 5.56 NATO round it should disintegrate on impact of sheet-rock" comment. Sorry that wasn't more clear

Oliver2w1 · Oct 19, 2013

PDX1 Deffender Slugs alternated with Federal Power Shok 00 Buck....If the bad guy can take that the house is his :lol:

kuntreebouy · Jan 1, 2014

i actually know a few guys and to make a long story short,we'll call em shooter, dead guy, and prison guy and birdshot,, shooter shot and killed dead guy at a bar in oburg over a hat roughly 10 yrs back, then shooter got off with self defense due a damn good lawyer and dead guy shooting a .22lr in the air in the parking lot and provoking shooter,, dead guys brother got out of prison not to long after the trial was over and swore to avenge dead guys death, prison guy found out were shooter was staying at but he didn't know what shooter looked like, so prison guy [ not the smartest by any means ] staked out shooters house with a 12 guage sawed off and saw birdshot coming out the house, prison guy ran up on bird shot and unloaded 5 rds of birdshot into his back and head,, birdshot lives to this day with a rather funny story to tell about a idiot named prisonguy that is back in prison for shooting birdshot with birdshot in a sawed off pump, yea my buddy got peppered pretty damn good , but he lives free while prisonguy rots were he needs to be,,, so the answer is NO,NO,NO,NO , do not use birdshot for selfdefense , only slugs or buck shot for your guage, only use it if your a criminal trying to kill a innocent bystandard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

flareback · Jan 1, 2014

Acecool said:
An AR would be better. You have more rounds, less recoil, and due to the high velocity of the 5.56 NATO round it should disintegrate on impact of sheet-rock. At least that's what I'm told. I want to test it at the range sometime just to get an idea of how much penetration to expect...

An AR-15 can travel through sheetrock. I searched youtube and found this one showing a 5.56 round going through two layers of sheetrock without fragmenting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZPGSiDs5_k

Tigerstripe · Jan 1, 2014

tr9 messed up. he shot through the wall and should have had the jel behind it.

i dont get his talk about not gonna shoot through more than 1 wall either.

i have fired at a block wall and made holes, not in the joint, but with target rds. i think a green tip will go through 4 or 5 walls of sheetrock and kill. buckshot maybe 2 walls.

ill make a video if i must.

Avtomat-Acolyte · Jan 1, 2014

flareback said:
Acecool said:

An AR would be better. You have more rounds, less recoil, and due to the high velocity of the 5.56 NATO round it should disintegrate on impact of sheet-rock. At least that's what I'm told. I want to test it at the range sometime just to get an idea of how much penetration to expect...

Click to expand...

An AR-15 can travel through sheetrock. I searched youtube and found this one showing a 5.56 round going through two layers of sheetrock without fragmenting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZPGSiDs5_k

I think you just demonstrated why birdshot sucks and 5.56 intermediate rifle cartridges are superior.

If an object doesn't have the kinetic energy to penetrate sheetrock then it won't have the kinetic energy required to penetrate a human's hidden and protected vital, internal organs.

Midnight Raver · Jan 2, 2014

Too bad flechette rounds are verboten now, I bet those would do nicely. :twisted:

Avtomat-Acolyte · Jan 2, 2014

Midnight Raver said:
Too bad flechette rounds are verboten now, I bet those would do nicely. :twisted:

Flechette shotgun rounds are about as ineffective as birdshot. Very, very poor penetration.

Anything other than a slug or buckshot and you're basically doing "pain compliance" with a firearm and hoping, by a miracle, that you actually might, accidentally, cause enough damage to stop someone that doesn't make the conscious decision to stop themselves.

Midnight Raver · Jan 2, 2014

Hmm, didn't know that they weren't so hot. Well, thanks for enlightening me on the flechettes Avtomat-Acolyte!

FunkyMonkey · Jan 2, 2014

Federal LE 133 00 buckshot. 8 pellets, low recoil, designed for and used by law enforcement. FliteControl wad for excellent patterning.

http://le.atk.com/ammunition/federal/buckshot/default.aspx Click under "Tactical"

Available everywhere, at least online.

Assuming one has decided to pick up a shotgun (which is a whole different debate), what else do you need for self-defense at shotgun distances? Why take a chance with you or your loved one's lives?

Tigerstripe · Jan 2, 2014

i don t test much 3.5 inch, i have some, but in my SBS my best patterns are with Federal premium 3 inch 000 buck. 10 big pellets.

PANZER22 · Feb 1, 2014

At the distance of zero to 15 feet it seems to me that any size shot is going to stop an intruder pretty quickly......I once saw the bloody stump of a neck and lower jaw of a guy hit with 06 12g at approx. 10 feet........Body armor may stop a lot of hits on the torso, but it is unlikely for the average intruder to be wearing quality armor.

I am inclined to keeping two loaded pistols at strategic hides in the house and everyone knows where and how to use them.

My 2 and 1/2 cents worth.