jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
My brother wants to do some deer hunting next year with his AR15. I don't think he wants to go to the AR10 due to cost.
What do you recommend?
What do you recommend?
What is the best caliber for hunting whitetail deer that will fit on an AR15 lower
- Thread starter jtischauser
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jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
I know very little about these calibers. How Is the 6.5 Grendel better than say the 6.8 SPC.
Scott Hearn
Well-Known Fanatic
What kind of shooting terrain? Heavily wooded or wide open plains?
You could just load up some heavy softpoint ammo and use a .223 AR. Just pick the right bullet.
You could just load up some heavy softpoint ammo and use a .223 AR. Just pick the right bullet.
Ksmirk
Well-Known Fanatic
223 just ask Feegee about the loads I made him up for deer. With the 223 I suggest neck shots as it's pretty quick and clean.
The loads I made Feegee I have used many years and have killed at least 9 deer without a hitch. I stepped up to the 284 Win thought
always wanted one so I built one for the deer out West. Later,
Kirk
The loads I made Feegee I have used many years and have killed at least 9 deer without a hitch. I stepped up to the 284 Win thought
always wanted one so I built one for the deer out West. Later,Kirk
dennishoddy
Moderator
What is the best caliber for killing a deer.
Man, that is a subject that had been debated by everybody from Elmer Kieth, Jack O'conner and everybody inbetween.
So, here we go with another opinion. First of all, I've killed over two hundred deer, and performed autopsy's on every one of them, as well as been a sponsor of youth hunts, introducing new folks into deer hunting, etc. Probaby have field dressed more than three hundred deer. Kills have been by archery, Muzzle loader, and centerfire rifle. So, I've seen the effects of a variety of calibers/bullets, and the effects they have on the internals of an animal.
I work in conjunction with the Okla Dept of Wildlife on Deer Managment Projects where areas that have an overpopulation of does need to be thinned out.
So much for all of that.
There is no Magic caliber.
There is no bullet/gun that will consistantly drop a deer in its tracks,unless it is shot in the area that will take out the central nervous system. (same for a human)
Poor bullet placement will result in a kill mostly, but some do survive a poor shot. Not many though. Often, the novice hunter will not recover the animal, as they don't have the tracking skills. I can't tell you the number of times I've got a call from a friend that shot a deer, and can't find them. They quickly give up, not knowing what to do next.
Sometimes there is a recovery, and sometimes there is coyote dinner.
I've killed deer with a 55 gr. 22-250, 55gr. .223, .303 British, .270 Win, .300 Savage, .243WSSM, 30-06, and others.(the majority of these calibers are available in AR uppers) Nothing is better than the other as far as a caliber is concerned.
What is significent is the bullet construction and how it performs when it passes through an animals cavity. The decision of what bullet to use is determined by the terrain you will be hunting.
If one is going to hunt in the west, where long shots are the norm, a bullet like the Barnes TTST that has a long sleek profile, and a high BC will work great for long shots, and give reliable expansion at long ranges.
Back east, or in eastern Okla, where shots may be limited by terrain to 100 yds or less can use a more fragile bullet that will mushroom at lower velocities.
Just my opinion, and my opinion only, the question of What is the best caliber for hunting whitetail deer in an AR upper is what ever you want to shoot.
If one has a caliber in mind, lets discuss placement, and bullets.
Man, that is a subject that had been debated by everybody from Elmer Kieth, Jack O'conner and everybody inbetween.
So, here we go with another opinion. First of all, I've killed over two hundred deer, and performed autopsy's on every one of them, as well as been a sponsor of youth hunts, introducing new folks into deer hunting, etc. Probaby have field dressed more than three hundred deer. Kills have been by archery, Muzzle loader, and centerfire rifle. So, I've seen the effects of a variety of calibers/bullets, and the effects they have on the internals of an animal.
I work in conjunction with the Okla Dept of Wildlife on Deer Managment Projects where areas that have an overpopulation of does need to be thinned out.
So much for all of that.
There is no Magic caliber.
There is no bullet/gun that will consistantly drop a deer in its tracks,unless it is shot in the area that will take out the central nervous system. (same for a human)
Poor bullet placement will result in a kill mostly, but some do survive a poor shot. Not many though. Often, the novice hunter will not recover the animal, as they don't have the tracking skills. I can't tell you the number of times I've got a call from a friend that shot a deer, and can't find them. They quickly give up, not knowing what to do next.
Sometimes there is a recovery, and sometimes there is coyote dinner.
I've killed deer with a 55 gr. 22-250, 55gr. .223, .303 British, .270 Win, .300 Savage, .243WSSM, 30-06, and others.(the majority of these calibers are available in AR uppers) Nothing is better than the other as far as a caliber is concerned.
What is significent is the bullet construction and how it performs when it passes through an animals cavity. The decision of what bullet to use is determined by the terrain you will be hunting.
If one is going to hunt in the west, where long shots are the norm, a bullet like the Barnes TTST that has a long sleek profile, and a high BC will work great for long shots, and give reliable expansion at long ranges.
Back east, or in eastern Okla, where shots may be limited by terrain to 100 yds or less can use a more fragile bullet that will mushroom at lower velocities.
Just my opinion, and my opinion only, the question of What is the best caliber for hunting whitetail deer in an AR upper is what ever you want to shoot.
If one has a caliber in mind, lets discuss placement, and bullets.
Dieseltech09
Well-Known Fanatic
Im in the process of building a 6.8spc for whitetail. The 6.8 and the 6.5 are almost identical out to 300yds. 6.8 is good out of a shorter barrel 6.5 needs a longer barrel.
68forums.com has a good hunting section with lots of info
68forums.com has a good hunting section with lots of info
shootingbuff
Well-Known Fanatic
458SOCOM Actually anything you can fit in both the smaller org size lower to the 308 /larger lower. Many will talk bad about the 22 cal rounds but they can if you can.
Just re-read the OP. 6.5 the 6.5 has assume BC / SD.
Actually anything you can fit in both the smaller org size lower to the 308 /larger lower. Many will talk bad about the 22 cal rounds but they can if you can.Just re-read the OP. 6.5 the 6.5 has assume BC / SD.
I'm a .270 bolt man myself and have taken dozens of bucks with my Sako. I agree with Dennis though... Bullet placement and bullet selection regardless of caliber are the most important. A 223 is fine for deer, you just have to be a little more careful with your shot placement. I personally think a little bigger bullet between .260 and .30 caliber is ideal and best suited for deer. In my opinion, a broadside double lung shot is usually the safest and most certain shot you can take on a deer.
-Paul
-Paul
aeropb
Well-Known Fanatic
6.5 Grendel would be my choice
I bought a 6.5 Grendel for just this purpose. I think it is a great all around hunting cartridge for deer and smaller sized game.
I also recently bought a .243 WSSM upper and it may turn out to be the ultimate deer AR15. We'll see once I get some time with it.
I also recently bought a .243 WSSM upper and it may turn out to be the ultimate deer AR15. We'll see once I get some time with it.
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
I need a caliber that doesn't require head shots and is readily available at a sporting good store. Knock Down ability is big because he hunt is Wisconsin where there are a lot of swamps you don't want to have to track a deer into.
silver star
Well-Known Fanatic
Then my aunt's gun would not work for you.
When the deer would get in her garder just out the back door of her trailer house, she would ease the door open with a cowboy 6 shooter with 22 shorts, one pop in the head and down that sucker would go.
Those stay at home mom's are tough.
Disclaimer; I was a minor, in another state and she is not with us anymore.
When the deer would get in her garder just out the back door of her trailer house, she would ease the door open with a cowboy 6 shooter with 22 shorts, one pop in the head and down that sucker would go.
Those stay at home mom's are tough.
Disclaimer; I was a minor, in another state and she is not with us anymore.
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
How does the 6.8 compare to the 6.5 for ammo cost and availability?
dennishoddy
Moderator
Jesse Tischauser said:
I've killed two does, and one buck with factory .223 Rem 55 grain PSP this year. Two fell instantly to the ground, the buck made 40 yds. All three were high shoulder shots meant to do exactly that. There is a loss of shoulder meat, but the animal died just as quick as a .300 win mag would have killed it. If the deer is in an open area, a double lung shot will work with the animal rarely making 60 yds.
"knock down power" really doesn't exist.
One doesn't knock an animal off its feet with a bullet, like what happens to a steel popper.
Proper placement of it causes disruption of the central nervous system, and the resulting loss of motor skills, or the instantaneous loss of blood pressure resulting in a quick death, and very little if any tracking.
Again, my advise is to buy whatever he can afford, and is comfortable shooting.
Buy ammo designed for deer sized animals, and go hunting.
dennishoddy
Moderator
General info for anybody interested.
Since the understanding of what causes effective wounding is prerequisite to any discussion of the desired terminal performance of a bullet, let us first examine the mechanisms of wounding which result in incapacitation and death.
Rapid death is brought about only by brain death (i.e., the collapse of the central nervous system). Brain death can be caused directly by damaging the brain or upper spinal tissue, or indirectly by depriving it of oxygen. Oxygen deprivation is the result of cardiac arrest or of hemorrhaging which reduces blood pressure or damage that completely shuts off the circulatory function. Thus rapid death is accomplished by causing the collapse of the central nervous or circulatory systems.
The single most important factor in wound lethality is bullet placement. This cannot be overstated. It is true that sometimes a direct hit on the brain by a bullet is not instantly incapacitating (read Massad Ayoob's "terminator" story from several years ago), but generally this is because that portion of the brain struck is the relatively "unimportant" part associated with cognition. Hits against the base of the brain or the upper spine are almost always instantly fatal because these regions control the involuntary vital functions like heartbeat and respiration.
In the case of hemorrhage resulting from damage to the lungs or arteries, brain death will likely occur prior to cessation of cardiac function; the time required for brain functions to deteriorate to the point of unconsciousness depending on the rate of hemorrhage. However, when damage is done directly to the heart, the circulatory function may be arrested first, leading to unconsciousness within a few seconds.
There is another mechanism of cardiac arrest that is less well understood but which may account for the nearly instantaneous death of game animals hit with modern weapons and that is induced cardiac fibrillation and arrest. The precise mechanism for the onset of the cardiac arrest is not fully understood, but its effect is well documented. It may involve some type of local neurological or humeral communication between the heart and lungs that gets short-circuited. Alternatively, a violent wound to the lung tissue may create a tiny embolism that interrupts cardio-pulmonary function at a critical moment.
Additionally, there is some evidence to suggest that the sudden pressure resulting from the bullet's passage (through the heart?) coupled with the coincidence of the systolic peak of the blood pressure cycle may communicate up the arteries to the brain and produce, in effect, a ruptured cranial aneurysm resulting in an indirect injury to the central nervous system.
Other than hits to the central nervous system (brain and spine) or the unpredictable mechanism of spontaneous cardiac arrest or cranial hemorrhage, the only reliable cause of rapid death is through hemorrhaging produced by cutting a hole through major blood-bearing organs (heart, lungs, liver) or major blood vessels (e.g., aorta). The dimensions and especially the location of the cavity produced by the bullet will determine the rate of hemorrhaging and in turn the rapidity of the onset of death. It is actually more lethal in some cases to sever the arteries directly above the heart, than to penetrate the heart itself. If these arteries are cut, blood pressure instantly drops to zero and death will follow in seconds (this is one reason why an arrow can kill as fast as a bullet). Lethal hemorrhaging does not depend upon how much blood exits the body, but only upon the loss of blood pressure.
Since the understanding of what causes effective wounding is prerequisite to any discussion of the desired terminal performance of a bullet, let us first examine the mechanisms of wounding which result in incapacitation and death.
Rapid death is brought about only by brain death (i.e., the collapse of the central nervous system). Brain death can be caused directly by damaging the brain or upper spinal tissue, or indirectly by depriving it of oxygen. Oxygen deprivation is the result of cardiac arrest or of hemorrhaging which reduces blood pressure or damage that completely shuts off the circulatory function. Thus rapid death is accomplished by causing the collapse of the central nervous or circulatory systems.
The single most important factor in wound lethality is bullet placement. This cannot be overstated. It is true that sometimes a direct hit on the brain by a bullet is not instantly incapacitating (read Massad Ayoob's "terminator" story from several years ago), but generally this is because that portion of the brain struck is the relatively "unimportant" part associated with cognition. Hits against the base of the brain or the upper spine are almost always instantly fatal because these regions control the involuntary vital functions like heartbeat and respiration.
In the case of hemorrhage resulting from damage to the lungs or arteries, brain death will likely occur prior to cessation of cardiac function; the time required for brain functions to deteriorate to the point of unconsciousness depending on the rate of hemorrhage. However, when damage is done directly to the heart, the circulatory function may be arrested first, leading to unconsciousness within a few seconds.
There is another mechanism of cardiac arrest that is less well understood but which may account for the nearly instantaneous death of game animals hit with modern weapons and that is induced cardiac fibrillation and arrest. The precise mechanism for the onset of the cardiac arrest is not fully understood, but its effect is well documented. It may involve some type of local neurological or humeral communication between the heart and lungs that gets short-circuited. Alternatively, a violent wound to the lung tissue may create a tiny embolism that interrupts cardio-pulmonary function at a critical moment.
Additionally, there is some evidence to suggest that the sudden pressure resulting from the bullet's passage (through the heart?) coupled with the coincidence of the systolic peak of the blood pressure cycle may communicate up the arteries to the brain and produce, in effect, a ruptured cranial aneurysm resulting in an indirect injury to the central nervous system.
Other than hits to the central nervous system (brain and spine) or the unpredictable mechanism of spontaneous cardiac arrest or cranial hemorrhage, the only reliable cause of rapid death is through hemorrhaging produced by cutting a hole through major blood-bearing organs (heart, lungs, liver) or major blood vessels (e.g., aorta). The dimensions and especially the location of the cavity produced by the bullet will determine the rate of hemorrhaging and in turn the rapidity of the onset of death. It is actually more lethal in some cases to sever the arteries directly above the heart, than to penetrate the heart itself. If these arteries are cut, blood pressure instantly drops to zero and death will follow in seconds (this is one reason why an arrow can kill as fast as a bullet). Lethal hemorrhaging does not depend upon how much blood exits the body, but only upon the loss of blood pressure.
