Rick S
Well-Known Fanatic
Let's say you come to the aide of a woman being assaulted by three jackasses, then they all come at you with clubs. You have your Glock 19 under your shirt. What's the best way to deal with this?
Three guys with clubs. Best way to handle situation?
- Thread starter Rick S
- Start date
dennishoddy
Moderator
Shoot them.
Have we at this point already made sure that the woman we're "rescuing" isn't the bad guy with a gun we don't see & these 3 guys didn't just chase her away from robbing a 711 & are coming at us because they now think we're an accomplice for "trying to help"?
Burk Cornelius
Regular guy
This is the point I always make in my "Shoot | No Shoot" seriesWall said:
michaelclm
Banned from the timer
The easy answer is, of course, "Vice Prez". Easy answers sometimes come with murder convictions, however.
What is the Dalai Lama saying about this scenario on Faceyspace right now?
What is the Dalai Lama saying about this scenario on Faceyspace right now?
Robusto
Well-Known Fanatic
Kicking at her and ask "Where's my money?!" Say to the guys, "Sorry gentlemen, no group rates."
Rick S
Well-Known Fanatic
I agree we don't know all the details, but do we let them club us in the head?
If you walk over and say hey what's going on here and they turn on you with weapons raised you have a clear and present danger to your personal well being. Has such no matter the cause for attacking the woman you now have a justifiable reason to draw you side arm and use it in defense of your life.
This being said be ready to hire a good lawyer cause the families will most like move to sue your ass right after you get cleared in court.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This being said be ready to hire a good lawyer cause the families will most like move to sue your ass right after you get cleared in court.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
dennishoddy
Moderator
If three mad guys are coming at me with baseball bats, I have the right to stand my ground and defend my self against possible critical injuries or death.
If they continue to approach me with a drawn gun in their face, I'm shooting.
If they continue to approach me with a drawn gun in their face, I'm shooting.
Rick S
Well-Known Fanatic
That was my thought too, but wanted some other opinionsdennishoddy said:
Burk Cornelius
Regular guy
TrueChad King said:
and truedennishoddy said:
However, someone could argue that you interjected yourself into the situation thus perhaps causing the aggression towards yourself. I'm not agreeing with that viewpoint but an attorney might still make it.
The bottom line, is be REAL sure before you put yourself in someone else's business
michaelclm
Banned from the timer
Here's the other aspect of this that people often forget about in their haste to become white knights:
You cannot use a higher level of force than that which the person you're protecting would have used themselves. So, if that lady on the ground getting her ass handed to her would not have shot those three dudes, then you can't either. You're basically stepping into that person's shoes. It's full potato, but that's how it is.
ETA: This is presuming that you're stopping the attack without them actually turning on you, not once they already have.
You cannot use a higher level of force than that which the person you're protecting would have used themselves. So, if that lady on the ground getting her ass handed to her would not have shot those three dudes, then you can't either. You're basically stepping into that person's shoes. It's full potato, but that's how it is.
ETA: This is presuming that you're stopping the attack without them actually turning on you, not once they already have.
wgm2011
Well-Known Fanatic
As bad as this may sound, I carry to protect myself and my loved ones.
Everyone out there has the same opportunity to get a concealed carry license, a gun, and the training to use it. If they chose not to, then its on them. Yup, this sounds bad but it is a decision I made when I first began to carry (more than 20 years ago) and I've seen nothing that will change my mind.
In the situation described I would pull my cell phone and get as much on video as possible while yelling as loud as possible "I've called the cops and they are on their way".
If approached I would retreat if possible. The last thing I would do is pull my weapon.
And I would fully expected the woman they are beating down to be the sister or wife of one of the three and she will be the prosecution's star witness against me.
Everyone out there has the same opportunity to get a concealed carry license, a gun, and the training to use it. If they chose not to, then its on them. Yup, this sounds bad but it is a decision I made when I first began to carry (more than 20 years ago) and I've seen nothing that will change my mind.
In the situation described I would pull my cell phone and get as much on video as possible while yelling as loud as possible "I've called the cops and they are on their way".
If approached I would retreat if possible. The last thing I would do is pull my weapon.
And I would fully expected the woman they are beating down to be the sister or wife of one of the three and she will be the prosecution's star witness against me.
Burk Cornelius
Regular guy
Best answer yetFlatland Shooter said:
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technetium-99m
Mighty Righty
I have 2 guns, one for each of you.
dennishoddy
Moderator
Y'all need to read the dammed law for stand your ground in Ok.
If justified, you can't be sued, and yes you can assist others not in your family unit.
If you choose to carry be aware of your regulations in your state. Not all are the same.
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Chapter 53 - Manufacture, Sale, and Wearing of Weapons
Oklahoma Firearms Act of 1971
Section 1289.25 - Physical or Deadly Force Against Intruder
Cite as: O.S. §, __ __
A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes or places of business.
B. A person or an owner, manager or employee of a business is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or a place of business, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against the will of that person from the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business; and
2. The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
C. The presumption set forth in subsection B of this section does not apply if:
1. The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not a protective order from domestic violence in effect or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;
2. The person or persons sought to be removed are children or grandchildren, or are otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
3. The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business to further an unlawful activity.
D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
E. A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle of another person, or a place of business is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
F. A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes charging or prosecuting the defendant.
G. A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force, but the law enforcement agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
H. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection F of this section.
I. The provisions of this section and the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall not be construed to require any person using a pistol pursuant to the provisions of this section to be licensed in any manner.
J. As used in this section:
1. "Dwelling" means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people;
2. "Residence" means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest; and
3. "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
Historical Data
Laws 1987, HB 1511, c. 54, § 2, eff. November 1, 1987; Amended by Laws 1995, SB 3, c. 272, § 57, eff. September 1, 1995; Amended by Laws 2006, HB 2615, c. 145, § 2, eff. November 1, 2006 (superseded document available); Amended by Laws 2011, HB 1439, c. 106, § 1, eff. November 1, 2011 (superseded document available).
Citationizer[emoji767] Summary of Documents Citing This Document
Cite Name Level
Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals Cases
Cite Name Level
2007 OK CR 29, 164 P.3d 208, EIZEMBER v. STATE Cited
2009 OK CR 5, IN RE: ADOPTION OF THE 2009 REVISIONS TO THE OKLAHOMA UNIFORM JURY INSTRUCTIONS CRIMINAL Discussed
2010 OK CR 1, 229 P.3d 1261, OWENS v. STATE Cited
2011 OK CR 1, 252 P.3d 214, DAWKINS v. STATE Discussed at Length
1998 OK CR 67, 972 P.2d 32, 70 OBJ 789, State v. Anderson Discussed at Length
1999 OK CR 37, 989 P.2d 998, Bernay v. State Discussed
Oklahoma Court of Civil Appeals Cases
Cite Name Level
2001 OK CIV APP 122, 33 P.3d 937, 72 OBJ 3100, GILIO v. STATE EX. REL. OKLAHOMA BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION Cited
Oklahoma Jury Instructions- Criminal
Cite Name Level
Defense of Person - Right to Stand Your Ground Cited
Defense of Person - Justifiable Use of Deadly Force Against Intruder Cited
Citationizer: Table of Authority
Cite Name Level
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Cite Name Level
21 O.S. 1289.25, Physical or Deadly Force Against Intruder Cited
If justified, you can't be sued, and yes you can assist others not in your family unit.
If you choose to carry be aware of your regulations in your state. Not all are the same.
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Chapter 53 - Manufacture, Sale, and Wearing of Weapons
Oklahoma Firearms Act of 1971
Section 1289.25 - Physical or Deadly Force Against Intruder
Cite as: O.S. §, __ __
A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes or places of business.
B. A person or an owner, manager or employee of a business is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or a place of business, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against the will of that person from the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business; and
2. The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
C. The presumption set forth in subsection B of this section does not apply if:
1. The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not a protective order from domestic violence in effect or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;
2. The person or persons sought to be removed are children or grandchildren, or are otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
3. The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business to further an unlawful activity.
D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
E. A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle of another person, or a place of business is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
F. A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes charging or prosecuting the defendant.
G. A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force, but the law enforcement agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
H. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection F of this section.
I. The provisions of this section and the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall not be construed to require any person using a pistol pursuant to the provisions of this section to be licensed in any manner.
J. As used in this section:
1. "Dwelling" means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people;
2. "Residence" means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest; and
3. "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
Historical Data
Laws 1987, HB 1511, c. 54, § 2, eff. November 1, 1987; Amended by Laws 1995, SB 3, c. 272, § 57, eff. September 1, 1995; Amended by Laws 2006, HB 2615, c. 145, § 2, eff. November 1, 2006 (superseded document available); Amended by Laws 2011, HB 1439, c. 106, § 1, eff. November 1, 2011 (superseded document available).
Citationizer[emoji767] Summary of Documents Citing This Document
Cite Name Level
Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals Cases
Cite Name Level
2007 OK CR 29, 164 P.3d 208, EIZEMBER v. STATE Cited
2009 OK CR 5, IN RE: ADOPTION OF THE 2009 REVISIONS TO THE OKLAHOMA UNIFORM JURY INSTRUCTIONS CRIMINAL Discussed
2010 OK CR 1, 229 P.3d 1261, OWENS v. STATE Cited
2011 OK CR 1, 252 P.3d 214, DAWKINS v. STATE Discussed at Length
1998 OK CR 67, 972 P.2d 32, 70 OBJ 789, State v. Anderson Discussed at Length
1999 OK CR 37, 989 P.2d 998, Bernay v. State Discussed
Oklahoma Court of Civil Appeals Cases
Cite Name Level
2001 OK CIV APP 122, 33 P.3d 937, 72 OBJ 3100, GILIO v. STATE EX. REL. OKLAHOMA BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION Cited
Oklahoma Jury Instructions- Criminal
Cite Name Level
Defense of Person - Right to Stand Your Ground Cited
Defense of Person - Justifiable Use of Deadly Force Against Intruder Cited
Citationizer: Table of Authority
Cite Name Level
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Cite Name Level
21 O.S. 1289.25, Physical or Deadly Force Against Intruder Cited
poopgiggle
B Class Nobody
Unless the lady poses an imminent risk to the 3 club-wielding dudes or their kids, they're committing a crime by going after her with clubs.Wall said:
Revenge isn't a just use of force. They have to call the cops, then hope for an arrest & conviction.
poopgiggle
B Class Nobody
The common hypothetical scenario is "what if the guys are cops and they're trying to apprehend the woman" but I can't imagine a situation where 3 male cops, in plainclothes, would be using batons to subdue one woman.
Maybe in LA but you can't carry there so it doesn't matter.
Maybe in LA but you can't carry there so it doesn't matter.
