Situational Question

[Thatguy]

Hey everybody!

Lets start of by saying I do not currently own a CCW however plan on obtaining one sometime in the very near future. The crime rate in Charleston is getting more ridiculous every week and I think it's about time.

With that said, I have a question in regards to legal rights in a particular situation.

I am an ATM Field Service Tech, which basically means means I fix ATMs when they break done (usually no more than 30 minutes on site). We are not armed, and it is actually against Company Policy for us to carry (thats a new topic for another day, lol) however as a local Police Officer told me; "It's better to sit at home reading the newspaper about some thug getting shot while looking for a job than it is to stand in front of the pearly gates looking down saying I should of shot that mother!@#$%" (yes, exact quote, lol).

Anyways, the situation I am thinking about is as follows, and I'd like to get your input if these actions would be lawful.

I have an ATM wide open, it's 10pm at night in a Drive-Through ATM (not inside a bank). I notice somebody approaching, lets say 40 feet away. I always make eye contact and say that the ATM is currently out of service. If said person keeps approaching can I:

1) Inform the individual that I am armed and politely ask them to leave
2) Upon said person still not complying, visually show my weapon

Would that be legal?

If not, what would be the appropriate way to protect myself? I tell you what, what I do is pretty dangerous since we work until midnight. We're a lot easier target than robbing a bank with a bigger outcome. I just want to protect myself to ensure I get home to my wife and kids at night.

Thanks for any input!

 

[bigfutz]

Yell, "Stop right there!" If they make an agressive move and you feel your life is in danger, draw and shoot until the threat is gone. Or run like hell and let them have the loot. Or get a different job. Are the bank's paper products worth your life? It is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

 

[C_Carson]

Remember that free legal advice over the internet is worth exactly what you paid for it.

I recommend researching the law and consulting a lawyer.

With that said, I absolutely would carry, despite what "policy" said employer implements. Better to be jobless than dead.

 

[thebrasilian]

I highly recommend getting your CWP first. Or leave the gun accessible inside your vehicle (assuming it's parked right next to you). Move to your weapon when you see the person and verbally challenge them. If you feel threated then draw.

Do not carry concealed without the CWP. You may survive the murder trial but you may end up in jail with the illegal gun trial.

either way go seek legal advice as mentioned.

One fact is for sure. If you have to draw I hope you planed a back up job.

 

[Thatguy]

Oh I definitely wouldn't carry without having a CWP. Just wanting to see what YOU would do in a situation like I've mentioned. How is drawing without shooting looked upon? What about not drawing but only showing (like weapon in holster)

 

[bigfutz]

Google Massad Ayoob

 

[mcdaniel]

Oh I definitely wouldn't carry without having a CWP. Just wanting to see what YOU would do in a situation like I've mentioned. How is drawing without shooting looked upon? What about not drawing but only showing (like weapon in holster)

IMHO these are 2 of the stupidest things you could do. Once you show your formerly concealed firearm you have just turned a fight into a gunfight. Once that happens, in all likelihood someone is going to lose their life. I have a CWP and I carry everyday, but I will not, under any circumstances show my firearm until I feel that I am in danger and I am ready to act. Now if you make that decision, draw, and then the treat dissipates, that is another question. But, a gun is not made to scare a threat away. A gun is made to neutralize a threat using deadly force.

 

[thebrasilian]

if you keep it in a car keep it in the center consul and in a holster. IIRC this is legal in SC.

 

[Thatguy]

Oh I definitely wouldn't carry without having a CWP. Just wanting to see what YOU would do in a situation like I've mentioned. How is drawing without shooting looked upon? What about not drawing but only showing (like weapon in holster)

IMHO these are 2 of the stupidest things you could do. Once you show your formerly concealed firearm you have just turned a fight into a gunfight. Once that happens, in all likelihood someone is going to lose their life. I have a CWP and I carry everyday, but I will not, under any circumstances show my firearm until I feel that I am in danger and I am ready to act. Now if you make that decision, draw, and then the treat dissipates, that is another question. But, a gun is not made to scare a threat away. A gun is made to neutralize a threat using deadly force.

Thank You for the reply! Definitely informative & I appreciate it. I can see where you're coming from.

 

[mcdaniel]

Oh I definitely wouldn't carry without having a CWP. Just wanting to see what YOU would do in a situation like I've mentioned. How is drawing without shooting looked upon? What about not drawing but only showing (like weapon in holster)

IMHO these are 2 of the stupidest things you could do. Once you show your formerly concealed firearm you have just turned a fight into a gunfight. Once that happens, in all likelihood someone is going to lose their life. I have a CWP and I carry everyday, but I will not, under any circumstances show my firearm until I feel that I am in danger and I am ready to act. Now if you make that decision, draw, and then the treat dissipates, that is another question. But, a gun is not made to scare a threat away. A gun is made to neutralize a threat using deadly force.

Thank You for the reply! Definitely informative & I appreciate it. I can see where you're coming from.

Thanks for understanding my opinion in the way I meant it.

 

[John Canuck]

Second what McDaniel said.

If I were you, I would be Inclined to retreat if presented with a robbery attempt. I have no intention of getting into a gun fight over my employers stuff or the banks stuff. I hope no one confuses this with me saying you must retreat. I just think the cost of shooting someone is greater than the value of someone else's stuff.

This is not legal advice but it is free. Getting involved in a self defense shooting should never be a case of sayIng what is the least the bad guy can do before I'm allowed to shoot him. It should be the absolute last resort.

 

[04ctd]

i "think" flashing a gun is "brandishing" and is NOT a good idea.

the one guy said it right: if you FEAR for your LIFE you kill the other guy.
your training and having a PLAN before he can react, should allow you to safe your life.

i think the difference between a crook & a CWP holder, is a CWP holder only has 3 things to do in his plan:
decide, draw, empty the clip

most people want to escalate: you say something, he says something meaner/louder, you fist up, he fists up, he shoves you, you shove him, then you pull a knive, he pulls a knive, then you pull a gun, he pulls a gun.
that's HOW a crook intends to get within arms reach of you and get control of you.

a CWP holder in fear for his life/safety should:
decide, draw, empty the clip
before he gets within arms reach.

 

[C_Carson]

i "think" flashing a gun is "brandishing" and is NOT a good idea.

the one guy said it right: if you FEAR for your LIFE you kill the other guy.
your training and having a PLAN before he can react, should allow you to safe your life.

i think the difference between a crook & a CWP holder, is a CWP holder only has 3 things to do in his plan:
decide, draw, empty the clip

most people want to escalate: you say something, he says something meaner/louder, you fist up, he fists up, he shoves you, you shove him, then you pull a knive, he pulls a knive, then you pull a gun, he pulls a gun.
that's HOW a crook intends to get within arms reach of you and get control of you.

a CWP holder in fear for his life/safety should:
decide, draw, empty the clip
before he gets within arms reach.

Did you mean magazine?

 

[04ctd]

Did you mean magazine?

ARGGGgg...busted! sorry!

 

[Thatguy]

i "think" flashing a gun is "brandishing" and is NOT a good idea.

the one guy said it right: if you FEAR for your LIFE you kill the other guy.
your training and having a PLAN before he can react, should allow you to safe your life.

i think the difference between a crook & a CWP holder, is a CWP holder only has 3 things to do in his plan:
decide, draw, empty the clip

most people want to escalate: you say something, he says something meaner/louder, you fist up, he fists up, he shoves you, you shove him, then you pull a knive, he pulls a knive, then you pull a gun, he pulls a gun.
that's HOW a crook intends to get within arms reach of you and get control of you.

a CWP holder in fear for his life/safety should:
decide, draw, empty the clip
before he gets within arms reach.

Very good info. Thanks man! Makes complete sense I am looking forward to my journey towards a CWP & first firearm.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

This situation intrigued me, so I thought I'd offer another opinion. Keep in mind what 'they' say about opinions! Now I'm as pro-2nd Amendment as they come, support and defend our rights to carry and defend ourselves, and spent my entire life catching criminals and protecting the innocent, so don't misunderstand what's coming. It sounds like you wish to purchase and carry a firearm primarily because of your employment, and that your employer prohibits you from being armed! If your employer has no interest in protecting it's property, why should you be concerned about it? It's another issue that they offer you no recourse to protect yourself. Besides, shooting a person to protect property alone is simply indefensible in court. Now, everyone relax, because I fully understand that an armed criminal presents a clear and imminent threat of serious injury or death to the OP, and consequently the situation has immediately escalated. I'm just offering an alternative point of view that the OP probably would be better off NOT being on either side of a shooting incident over ATM cash (just 'stuff') that is not his. If confronted, he could say, "I am not armed, take the cash, and I'll help you load it up if you want me to". Then report everything to the po-po. I acknowledge the risk that the criminal may harm, even kill the OP, but even crazed crackheads are concerned only with the cash, and the introduction of another weapon escalates the confrontation quickly out of control. Furthermore, the OP admits he's new to firearms, and that may present a myriad of additional difficulties.

On the other hand, if you wish to purchase firearms for defense of your self and your family, or for the simple joy of shooting and becoming proficient with firearms, then by all means buy dozens of guns, thousands of rounds of ammo, get your CWP, and blast away.

 

[Paco]

Did you mean magazine?

Maybe he as a pistol version of an M1 Garand he carries around :roll:

For myself, I've decided that if I have to draw then somebody is going to get shot. Because that is the only situation that I would ever need to draw my weapon in. A lethal response to a deadly threat.
Obviously, there are situations were the simple act of drawing the weapon will immediately diffuse the situation. However, I believe it is better to have the mentality to be ready to shoot than one of "I'll draw and scare him off".

If you aren't going to use it, leave it in your pants.

 

[bigfutz]

If you aren't going to use it, leave it in your pants.

Or leave it at home. I listen to Tom Gresham's Gun Talk radio show on podcast. He has opened my eyes and made me think. These are not my original ideas, but I have to say I have a hard time arguing with them:
* Avoid situations where you think there's a high probability you will need your gun.
* Use lethal force to protect yourself and family. Don't inject yourself into a situation to "protect" strangers.
* Don't use a gun to protect your or anyone else's property. It's just stuff!

You should listen to the show; this topic comes up frequently. But there's lighter topics such as new gear too.

 

[Paco]

If you aren't going to use it, leave it in your pants.

Or leave it at home.

A weapon does no good for me if I cannot use it when I need it.

The rest of the points are good.

 

[Torontogosh]

Little of topic, but I'm listening to Tom Gresham right now. He has pretty solid advice, and if you're bored, give him a listen (guntalk.com)

Ultimately, this topic is just one of those things with a million factors, and a thousand "what if's". Every point is valid, but we're all just guessing, because who knows what a robbery would look like. Will it be obvious 30 feet away that there is a bad guy coming toward you? Will a car come screaching up before you can even comprehend what's going on? Maybe some kids just want to scare you for an extremely dumb laugh (been there).

Truly, the only thing you can do is dive in and really think about carrying a gun. There a ton of good CWP avenues (I like BELT Training) and taking a class that covers the legality over defensive shootings will help you find the right perspective for you. Training is fun, its full of gun folks (so you know the crowd will be great), and an educated decision is always a better one (even if that means not carrying a gun).

FWIW, Massad Ayoob is teaching at BELT and will be doing a 4 day (2 legal,2 shooting) class in November. You can elect just to take one or the other if 4 days is a tough commitment.

TL;DR version - get some professional training and this will be easier to figure out.