Shotgun Pro Tip from Patrick Kelley

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Good stuff!

Cyrwus and I had this exact conversation with Pat @ Superstition, where he demolished the big shotgun stage.

Another funny thing...that stage had a lot of close no shoots, and most people ran full chokes, but the ones who did the best shot light mod and aimed just a little differently.
 
Something else is you can have someone check your stance and if no one is available do bill drills to learn how to better your stance / show the weakness in your stance. In other words one needs to learn stance foo..

You will really save time on barricade shots as well as shooting multiple fast shots from the same position as in more than 5. If you watch enough video you will see some of the top shooters getting rocked with just a few rounds. As Mr. Kelly pointed out it is all about stance.

Now that the world knows lol
 
Great vid! I have sent and told several folks about this as it's easier to see than for me to explain. Thanks for posting! Later,

Kirk
 
P.E. Kelley said:
Thank you Jesse for posting this here. Sometimes the basics of firearm deployment get over looked.
Glad you all seem to like it.
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Pat, I think the above is due to the light loads. Not that long ago when one had to have a better stance that is what they learned. Not having the need as much these days folks don't know or know and don't feel they have to due to ammo, comps, recoil pads/springs, and better technology to allow the guns to run with softer ammo. Still if one wants to be good they need a good stance even with all of the above improvements. Yet again I don't think most folks know they need to or feel they have to. Same thing with the rifles.

I would be pleased to hear your views on this.

Additionally I feel the stance from firearm to firearm should remain basically the same between all three guns
 
My problem is I get in a hurry to start shooting and don't get the position I should have the first time. After my misses over the top of the last two plates and a bolt lock reload I usually get it locked down. Same thing happens on long range rifle. When I get tired of missing I get the good position or grip or stance.
 
Jesse Tischauser said:
My problem is I get in a hurry to start shooting and don't get the position I should have the first time. After my misses over the top of the last two plates and a bolt lock reload I usually get it locked down. Same thing happens on long range rifle. When I get tired of missing I get the good position or grip or stance.
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THIS!!!
 
Jesse Tischauser said:
My problem is I get in a hurry to start shooting and don't get the position I should have the first time. After my misses over the top of the last two plates and a bolt lock reload I usually get it locked down. Same thing happens on long range rifle. When I get tired of missing I get the good position or grip or stance.
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Jesse Tischauser said:
My problem is I get in a hurry to start shooting and don't get the position I should have the first time. After my misses over the top of the last two plates and a bolt lock reload I usually get it locked down. Same thing happens on long range rifle. When I get tired of missing I get the good position or grip or stance.
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So Jesse (just trying to figure this out) do you fall in the don't feel they need to group or maybe you don't have a training partner to let you know when you are jacking up? if the latter then do bill Drills and shoot L/R barricade. You should be able to figure it. Most don't like to practice - it is boring. I feel that is the only way you will get better in shooting, golf or anything. Keep records and if possible record yourself. You can practice stance at he house once you unload and show clear then unload the gun ;) by having your wife grasping the forearm and pushing/ pulling backwards. You shouldn't move or move very little. Stay that way for a while with your wife checking every few minutes. Once your body gets used to it it will become natural. Same with all your firearms and from a L/R barricade as well. Main thing as you noted you don't get into position initially. You can do this around the house as well with the wife checking your stance. A mirror to see yourself standing sideways can help as well once you know what right looks like. Bad practice makes bad habits. Just babbling and not an expert, however I did watch the movie Heat once.Actually I am not implying anything just babbling and nursing my tendon. When it hurts I take it out on the keyboard.
 
shootingbuff said:
So Jesse (just trying to figure this out) do you fall in the don't feel they need to group or maybe you don't have a training partner to let you know when you are jacking up? if the latter then do bill Drills and shoot L/R barricade. You should be able to figure it. Most don't like to practice - it is boring. I feel that is the only way you will get better in shooting, golf or anything. Keep records and if possible record yourself. You can practice stance at he house once you unload and show clear then unload the gun ;) by having your wife grasping the forearm and pushing/ pulling backwards. You shouldn't move or move very little. Stay that way for a while with your wife checking every few minutes. Once your body gets used to it it will become natural. Same with all your firearms and from a L/R barricade as well. Main thing as you noted you don't get into position initially. You can do this around the house as well with the wife checking your stance. A mirror to see yourself standing sideways can help as well once you know what right looks like. Bad practice makes bad habits. Just babbling and not an expert, however I did watch the movie Heat once.Actually I am not implying anything just babbling and nursing my tendon. When it hurts I take it out on the keyboard.
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It's all buzzer related. I've pretty much practiced the good and the bad and which is which but being as that I haven't been Shooting for too long I still get excited when the buzzer goes off and push beyond my mental limits of things I can remember To do because several things aren't subconscious yet.
 
There are two schools of thought here.

Stance is everything, over-power the gun, force things to fit your stance in any position. Good examples are Mike Seeklander, Pat, Bennie Cooley, and Todd Jarret, folks that win at the top.

Relax, roll with it, be comfortable, let the sights determine the shot and trigger. Good examples are Bruce Piatt, Matt Burkett, Taran Butler, folks that win at the top.

I would propose to you, that it depends on where your at on your own personal travel and once you let it all go and just watch your sights and trigger the shot when it,s propper, you will find yourself more relaxed and shooting faster and more accurately than ever before. Pat and I come at the shotgun from two different thoughts, and when the smoke and lead dust clears there isn't much of any difference, outside of Pat being better looking.

Jesse, the best way not to get a "beeper labotomy" is to just relax and see the monkey playing the cymbols in your minds eye, when he is going all in the world is good :crazy:

My avitar is from the Euro Rifle Championships held in Norway in 2009. In the picture I am engaging a string of 6 targets that are around 12 meters. From my "stance" can you guess wich way I prefer?
 
Kurt is spot on with the two approaches.

In a short "can you do this after the last stage" kind of video it is tough to offer up anything more than my own way.

Kurt and others at the top of the game who in my opinion are comfortable with "relax and watch the sights" (via good technique) are potentially faster target to target. As it is more difficult to move fast when tense (not relaxed). Again Kurt is right that I, like one of my mentors Bennie Cooley are "power-tool drivers". For me at least that was built from years with a pumpgun. Both techniques have and will get you to the podium. You should know how to employ either for the job at hand.

I learn so much from exchanges with Kurt...he has given me much over the years!
Thanks
Patrick
 
I was not Sharp-shooting Pats video at all, It is darn good advice, especially with a scattergun. What I was more replying to was the concept of being ridgid in "stance" and having the same "stance" for everything.

A great example of this is a couple of stages long ago and far away. IN both instances the competitor was hung up in a parachute harness, one free hanging the other on an incline. Since I R.O.ed one of these fine stages I got to watch EVERYONE of the "top" shooters shoot the stage. The "force it all to fit" shooters to a person struggled mightily, because they couldn't "weight" the gun, couldn't get their feet right...etc. The Relaxed shooters all faired much better in the fact they just accepted it, didn't struggle to get to their special way to shoot, just watched the sights and pressed the trigger. It was more of a mental shift for the "rigid guys" where as the relaxed guys just delt with it right away.

Now the con. First ever Euro Shotgun Championship, there was a stage where you had to stand in the bindings of a pair of skis which were a little less than shoulder width apart. It was a 14 round slug stage. At the Beep I shot the 4 targets on the right side, loaded six and engaged the activator the swinger and the static plate and the static target, BUT after the reload I forgot to forward weight I shot the last 6 rounds standing straight up....thankfully I didn't fall over, but on my last shot I was so far off ballance backwards I had to do a quick step to keep from falling, and shoulder blocked one of the R.O.s....So where was Pat's advice then?....what I am pointing out as Mr. Kelley so aptly pointed out is you got to know when each is appropriate
 
Jesse thanks for your honesty.

Kurt and Pat Thank you both for sharing. I understand the relax method with good form. One last question to yo two demi-gods of 3G. When one watches a professional shooter being rocked out of their position/stance/ form on their last couple of shots is this due mental fatigue, not needing to stay behind the gun, or something else.

I believe in the stance/ form. More important on barricades and multiple rounds form the same position. That stated a blend of speed and accuracy and re-acquiring a sight picture is different for each person. It will depend also I would think on targets near to each other vs having time to ride the recoil during transition.

In other words good form or stance is like a pump vs auto in my mind (could be wrong here as well) where if you can mange getting the pump into action during the transition there is not a huge difference between a pump and auto. Set the targets close to each other and the pump will have to play catch up because there is minimal transition. Same goes for a lesser degree of control the the firearm.

This goes back to technology and softer loads not requiring the shooter to understand stance and my earlier post reference the shooter only doing enough to get by. This is not wrong, just doesn't teach the stance I believe as it was once preached.because there is less need on controlling the firearm now then on movement and especially keeping the firearms running be it reloading or malfunctions etc.

I think this is one reason you see a shooter being rocked now and then which a little better stance would prevent.

I thank everyone for answering my questions or commenting on my views. Really a great learning experience having these guys around and we should all take advantage of it as long as they have time to check in now and then.
 
KurtM said:
I was not Sharp-shooting Pats video at all, It is darn good advice, especially with a scattergun. What I was more replying to was the concept of being ridgid in "stance" and having the same "stance" for everything.

A great example of this is a couple of stages long ago and far away. IN both instances the competitor was hung up in a parachute harness, one free hanging the other on an incline. Since I R.O.ed one of these fine stages I got to watch EVERYONE of the "top" shooters shoot the stage. The "force it all to fit" shooters to a person struggled mightily, because they couldn't "weight" the gun, couldn't get their feet right...etc. The Relaxed shooters all faired much better in the fact they just accepted it, didn't struggle to get to their special way to shoot, just watched the sights and pressed the trigger. It was more of a mental shift for the "rigid guys" where as the relaxed guys just delt with it right away.

Now the con. First ever Euro Shotgun Championship, there was a stage where you had to stand in the bindings of a pair of skis which were a little less than shoulder width apart. It was a 14 round slug stage. At the Beep I shot the 4 targets on the right side, loaded six and engaged the activator the swinger and the static plate and the static target, BUT after the reload I forgot to forward weight I shot the last 6 rounds standing straight up....thankfully I didn't fall over, but on my last shot I was so far off ballance backwards I had to do a quick step to keep from falling, and shoulder blocked one of the R.O.s....So where was Pat's advice then?....what I am pointing out as Mr. Kelley so aptly pointed out is you got to know when each is appropriate
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Adapt, improvise and be flexible.
 
Now that we have both Patrick and Uncle Kurt here I'd like to ask if any of this advice changes when one is shooting a pump shotgun.

Seems that having to manually work the action would change the way one drives a shotgun around.
 
I won that slug stage by 17% so I wold have to say that while I was getting rocked back, I stayed on the sights and broke the shots as they were aligned. If I were all stance orriented I would have probably stoped shooting reafirmed my stance and then continued on as I have seen people do many times, and there by NOT winning the stage....your call. I kind of think of it this way...yep some top shooters are getting "knocked back" by the end of a string is because they didn't take the EXTRA time to get all stancy, and know the outerlimit of what they can get by with and SAVE the time it would have taken....kind of like crossing the finish line JUST as the rod comes out the side of the block, used 100%

G.T. you know how much I love pump guns so ask Pat....he is the king in that department, but I don't change what I am doing with a pump if that helps.
 
Liked the racing reference. Wouldn't work if you had a anther race or had to run from deputy dawg, Big 5-O etc unless a pro racer of course.:)

I see having to reset one's stance as an indicator that a good enough stance wasn't used to begin with.

I see proper stance vs. a good enough stance vs dwell time between shots if one gets rocked vs the quality of hits if rocked. This will be dependent on the shooter and the gear. Would the difference one way or the other win a stage / match? I do not see a fast an easy answer coming from this form. It would take drills repeated to understand how this would help/hinder a shooter. Then it would only be for those "practiced" drills for that shooter and gear.

Totally agree one has to shoot from anywhere, but barricades and multiple targets near each other seems to say one needs to ensure they have for sure at least an adequate stance. I don't play the odds nor am I a good shooter. I would want to ensure as much as possible I wouldn't get rocked. Everyone is at a different level in their shooting and have their opinions and experiences. I truly appreciate the insights from those that have gone before and have been doing this for a while who also do very well at this shooting stuff.
 
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