Self Defense; H2H
- Thread starter Wormydog1724
- Start date
Feegee
The Magic Man
It is in the Paseo district across from musashi steak house on north western, next door to western ave boxing gym upstairs. Probally 12 to 13 is age limit I will check and see. Royce Gracie himself comes and does seminars, and also MMA fighter Buddy Clinton (Royce's first black belt) comes up to.
twotonevert
Well-Known Fanatic
I hope I can jump in on this conversation. I have trained for many years in Karate and variations of different disciplines. Started out with Tracy's at 21st and Yale when I was in middle school. Moved to California and continuted training and did several tournemants. Came back to Oklahoma in the late 80's and never did anyting until a few years ago I started going to Dale Apollo Cooks school. I have some great sensei's that taught self defense situations, at least it was not sport driven from my point of view. I achieved a few belts and got halfway to black belt before I had to drop out. Now I am finding myself wanting to train again, mostly because I need to lose weight at almost 40 I need to be in better shape. And I really enjoyed training. With the training I got a Cooks, I figured out I didnt need to be afraid of anyone with the proper skills and techniques. I am not saying I want to fight because I dont, but my point is no matter how big or ugly my opponet is, I know how to inflict the most damage possible in the least amount of time and get the heck away from him. If we go the ground I will doing my best to break an arm, leg, or neck if need be. I am also not saying I can defend myself in every situation, but bare hand fighting is not something I fear. I need to check out this Krav Magna. Thank you for the discussion.
shakkazombie
Fanatic
Just wanted to throw in my $.02 worth.
I've been studying martial arts/combatives for the majority of my life. I earned my black belt in Aikido, and have a good amount of experience in Judo and boxing. After being out of AIkido for a while, I went back to it about 2 years ago, and found that my priorities had changed since the last time I'd been studying it seriously. As such, I sought out something much more combatively oriented, and was lucky to become involved in Sayoc Kali, Atienza Kali, and the Warriors Way System of Guro Harley Elmore.
I can only speak from my own experience and observations, but arts like BJJ share some of the same shortcomings mentioned in regards to arts like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, boxing, etc. That is to say, BJJ is a sport. It is an art derived from another art (Kodokan Judo) that was developed as a hybrid sport/self defense art/physical education system. In traditional BJJ practice, as in Judo and many other arts, practice takes place primarily between 2 people. These arts may have forms or series of techniques that address the need to fight more than 1 person, but those are auxiliary to the main focus of the art.
The sportive aspects of Judo and BJJ are a sort of double edged sword: on the one hand, you are practicing executing techniques at full speed against an opponent who is resisting you fully, which in spirit is about as close to combat as a person can safely get; on the other hand, there are rules, and you're only fighting one person at a time. If you're main area of study is grappling based, and you're lucky enough to get into a fight with a lone person who has no friends or relatives in the immediate vicinity, then you'll probably be ok taking him down and choking him out. BJJ and Judo techniques are absolutely devastating. Unfortunately, though some may take the time to train mass attack scenarios into their BJJ and Judo practice, the average person who studies those arts is going to be poorly served if the person they are fighting isn't alone (which, in my experience, is more often than not). Putting the sleeper hold on someone is a great way to knock them out, but when their brother-in-law runs up and stomps on your neck while you're executing perfect ground game, you're boned. If the only answer you have to someone bringing violence against you is BJJ or Judo, and you've been lucky enough to win those altercations, then you've been extremely lucky. It's my opinion that those arts (and indeed, most arts), offer an incomplete or inadequate set of responses to physical conflict.
That doesn't mean that I think BJJ and Judo aren't wonderful, fulfilling areas of study, with huge benefits to offer practitioners. They absolutely are worth the time and effort it takes to become skilled in them. It's my opinion, though, that if a person is looking to study martial arts as a means to gain self defense skills, then cross training is essential. The BJJ may have been working in the past few altercations you've had, but things can go south quick when someone who knows what they're doing puts a stiff jab on your top lip. Study boxing, ground work, weapons, standing grapplig, etc. Hybrid systems are also a fantastic way to go about obtaining diverse training. The Inosanto and Warriors Way systems, for example, offer students training in Jun Fan Gung Fu (Bruce Lee's system - kick boxing, trapping, etc.), Filipino Kali (knives, sticks, swords, etc. as well as Panantukan (Boxing), Sikaran (Kicking), Dumog (grappling)), Indonesian Silat (a complete system encompassing weapons, empty hand, grapplig), and other systems. Hard to beat an art that will train you in most, if not all, of the areas you may need in physical combat.
I personally have chosen Sayoc Kali as my main pursuit. It is absolutely, hands down, the most complete and forward thinking combatives system I've ever experienced. I would encourage anyone interested to check it out, PM me for more info.
On the topic of mindset, I've always loved a quote I heard second hand that was attributed to Tuhon Tom Kier of Sayoc Kali. The essential idea was that, if you took two identical twins, just alike in every way, and sent one to study with the best martial arts teachers on the planet 10 hours a day, every day, for a year, and sent the other to a place where they were made to fight, 10 hours a day, every day, for a year, with no training whatsoever, and then had them fight each other after that year, then the one who had spent all of his time fighting would win easily. Training can only provide a facsimile of combat; one in which the student's safety is at least somewhat protected. It's for this reason that finding a system and/or teacher that deals with training for real combat practically, rather than as an auxiliary practice to their main art. Any art can be effective, if the person using it has been well trained, and has been pushed in that training to apply the techniques of that system against an aggressive and resistant opponent.
I personally believe that H2H training is as important, if not more so, than firearms training. I love shooting, I believe that firearms training is essential (and fun), and want to train in firearms with as many amazing instructors as I can afford, but I truly believe that most people would be better served devoting more time and money to fitness and H2H training than to firearms. I want to be fully capable in all forms of physical combat, no matter if I'm carrying a rifle, a shotgun, carrying concealed, only have a knife on me, or even if I'm in a non-permissive environment where I'm either fully unarmed, or only have everyday items such as pens, etc., at hand. It's intimidating knowing how much knowlege is out there that I haven't even scratched the surface of, but it's also pretty exciting, and it's worth the effort.
I've been studying martial arts/combatives for the majority of my life. I earned my black belt in Aikido, and have a good amount of experience in Judo and boxing. After being out of AIkido for a while, I went back to it about 2 years ago, and found that my priorities had changed since the last time I'd been studying it seriously. As such, I sought out something much more combatively oriented, and was lucky to become involved in Sayoc Kali, Atienza Kali, and the Warriors Way System of Guro Harley Elmore.
I can only speak from my own experience and observations, but arts like BJJ share some of the same shortcomings mentioned in regards to arts like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, boxing, etc. That is to say, BJJ is a sport. It is an art derived from another art (Kodokan Judo) that was developed as a hybrid sport/self defense art/physical education system. In traditional BJJ practice, as in Judo and many other arts, practice takes place primarily between 2 people. These arts may have forms or series of techniques that address the need to fight more than 1 person, but those are auxiliary to the main focus of the art.
The sportive aspects of Judo and BJJ are a sort of double edged sword: on the one hand, you are practicing executing techniques at full speed against an opponent who is resisting you fully, which in spirit is about as close to combat as a person can safely get; on the other hand, there are rules, and you're only fighting one person at a time. If you're main area of study is grappling based, and you're lucky enough to get into a fight with a lone person who has no friends or relatives in the immediate vicinity, then you'll probably be ok taking him down and choking him out. BJJ and Judo techniques are absolutely devastating. Unfortunately, though some may take the time to train mass attack scenarios into their BJJ and Judo practice, the average person who studies those arts is going to be poorly served if the person they are fighting isn't alone (which, in my experience, is more often than not). Putting the sleeper hold on someone is a great way to knock them out, but when their brother-in-law runs up and stomps on your neck while you're executing perfect ground game, you're boned. If the only answer you have to someone bringing violence against you is BJJ or Judo, and you've been lucky enough to win those altercations, then you've been extremely lucky. It's my opinion that those arts (and indeed, most arts), offer an incomplete or inadequate set of responses to physical conflict.
That doesn't mean that I think BJJ and Judo aren't wonderful, fulfilling areas of study, with huge benefits to offer practitioners. They absolutely are worth the time and effort it takes to become skilled in them. It's my opinion, though, that if a person is looking to study martial arts as a means to gain self defense skills, then cross training is essential. The BJJ may have been working in the past few altercations you've had, but things can go south quick when someone who knows what they're doing puts a stiff jab on your top lip. Study boxing, ground work, weapons, standing grapplig, etc. Hybrid systems are also a fantastic way to go about obtaining diverse training. The Inosanto and Warriors Way systems, for example, offer students training in Jun Fan Gung Fu (Bruce Lee's system - kick boxing, trapping, etc.), Filipino Kali (knives, sticks, swords, etc. as well as Panantukan (Boxing), Sikaran (Kicking), Dumog (grappling)), Indonesian Silat (a complete system encompassing weapons, empty hand, grapplig), and other systems. Hard to beat an art that will train you in most, if not all, of the areas you may need in physical combat.
I personally have chosen Sayoc Kali as my main pursuit. It is absolutely, hands down, the most complete and forward thinking combatives system I've ever experienced. I would encourage anyone interested to check it out, PM me for more info.
On the topic of mindset, I've always loved a quote I heard second hand that was attributed to Tuhon Tom Kier of Sayoc Kali. The essential idea was that, if you took two identical twins, just alike in every way, and sent one to study with the best martial arts teachers on the planet 10 hours a day, every day, for a year, and sent the other to a place where they were made to fight, 10 hours a day, every day, for a year, with no training whatsoever, and then had them fight each other after that year, then the one who had spent all of his time fighting would win easily. Training can only provide a facsimile of combat; one in which the student's safety is at least somewhat protected. It's for this reason that finding a system and/or teacher that deals with training for real combat practically, rather than as an auxiliary practice to their main art. Any art can be effective, if the person using it has been well trained, and has been pushed in that training to apply the techniques of that system against an aggressive and resistant opponent.
I personally believe that H2H training is as important, if not more so, than firearms training. I love shooting, I believe that firearms training is essential (and fun), and want to train in firearms with as many amazing instructors as I can afford, but I truly believe that most people would be better served devoting more time and money to fitness and H2H training than to firearms. I want to be fully capable in all forms of physical combat, no matter if I'm carrying a rifle, a shotgun, carrying concealed, only have a knife on me, or even if I'm in a non-permissive environment where I'm either fully unarmed, or only have everyday items such as pens, etc., at hand. It's intimidating knowing how much knowlege is out there that I haven't even scratched the surface of, but it's also pretty exciting, and it's worth the effort.
SteveS
Well-Known Fanatic
Good points...."A man with a theory will always be at the mercy to man with experience". It is important to know the why behind techniques. It is not always practical to find an instructor that has experience. But, when possible find someone that has used a wide variety of the techniques they teach.
Corey
Well-Known Fanatic
Agree with lots of people to many to quote
1. A 16 year old friend (james) when I was 20, had a Junior Tai Kon Do Black belt and black belt in Kenpo he was dangerous with a with a broom handle or if you was 2 inches away he could hit you many many times before you got your balance. With boxing gloves my younger brother with fast hands, and a wrestling background would get the best of him every time. James had never "hit" any body in the face before this showed in boxing.
2. I have a green belt in kenpo and tried to apply what i learned while boxing. Back then boxing consisted of everyone getting off work at Sonic and boxing in the street with 16 oz gloves we would video it then go inside watch the matches and go home. The blocks really work with cowboy punches as well as a straight jab. In Kenpo we were taught to use angles never fight head on so the foot work was very helpful. Boxing was fun and you had time to think afterwards what happened and what you could do better.
James and I had the same Instructor for Kenpo the instructor always said he taught the classes differently after three guys tried to mug him one pulled a knife instructor won.
3. What I learned from martial arts is carry a gun if it looks bad get the hell out of there because you don't know what the other guy knows nor do you know his mindset.
4. If you can't get out of there hit them first don't stop till you break something
My advice is check out boxing, weightroom is always a plus, mma or martial arts are great.
In an old issue of soldier of fortune I remember an answer to this kind of question, answer was who evers friend walks up first with a gun is the winner.
1. A 16 year old friend (james) when I was 20, had a Junior Tai Kon Do Black belt and black belt in Kenpo he was dangerous with a with a broom handle or if you was 2 inches away he could hit you many many times before you got your balance. With boxing gloves my younger brother with fast hands, and a wrestling background would get the best of him every time. James had never "hit" any body in the face before this showed in boxing.
2. I have a green belt in kenpo and tried to apply what i learned while boxing. Back then boxing consisted of everyone getting off work at Sonic and boxing in the street with 16 oz gloves we would video it then go inside watch the matches and go home. The blocks really work with cowboy punches as well as a straight jab. In Kenpo we were taught to use angles never fight head on so the foot work was very helpful. Boxing was fun and you had time to think afterwards what happened and what you could do better.
James and I had the same Instructor for Kenpo the instructor always said he taught the classes differently after three guys tried to mug him one pulled a knife instructor won.
3. What I learned from martial arts is carry a gun if it looks bad get the hell out of there because you don't know what the other guy knows nor do you know his mindset.
4. If you can't get out of there hit them first don't stop till you break something
My advice is check out boxing, weightroom is always a plus, mma or martial arts are great.
In an old issue of soldier of fortune I remember an answer to this kind of question, answer was who evers friend walks up first with a gun is the winner.
having read this thread almost all the way through I notice a lot of good comments, a lot of people who are serious about hand to hand combat and have the right mentality. I personally did quite a bit of fighting in my younger years. Middle school was one blood nose to the next. But I learned a valuble lesson when I was 14 years old. I got in to a kids scuffle over another kid trying to steal my bike. Long story short he ended up in the hospital by accident. I felt bad in a way but felt kinda BA as well, being 14. But I didnt feel so cool when his older brother and 6 of his friends put me in the hospital with a concussion, lots of broken ribs, teeth and brusing on my liver. If someone hadnt saved me I might not have made it. I remember thinking, never again, I didnt want to fight, not that I was scared really, but I knew that all that macho crap is best left in "Road House". When it comes down to it, my best defense is my size 10 shoes getting me as far away as fast as possible. If forced to fight, strike without mercy, win, because losing means pain, losing means death.
I still trained, harder if anything, I spent 6 years in Karate as a kid, wrestled in middle school and high school, started reading a lot of different books, a lot of jujitsu, chin na, small circle, kali/escrima with FCS kali, trained BJJ with chuck bradshaw and marcelo pereria,Muay Thai with Jason Goodall. Whatever I could get my hands in or on, I was hooked. But the one thing I learned from every style and teacher is that discipline and humility are the keys to unlocking skill. Styles are a label that seperates, learning to fight effectively is not a style. As Bruce Lee said, "Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it."
I have grappled with 275 pound guys and choked them out, I have sparred or boxed with guys with hands you couldnt see move. What I've learned, after lots of bruises, bloody noses and broken knuckles. Winning is about being able to adapt, learning to identify the opponents weakness and exploit it, not just being the fastest or strongest. Granted those things are major assets, but winning is a state of mind, a clarity of thought and focus. Not to beat a dead horse but bruce lee said this when asked about his thoughts when facing an opponent, he said, "There is no opponent", when asked why he said this, "Because the word ''l'' does not exist.
A good fight should be like a small play...but played seriously. When the opponent expands, l contract. When he contracts, l expand. And when there is an opportunity... l do not hit...it (his fist) hits all by itself."
I still trained, harder if anything, I spent 6 years in Karate as a kid, wrestled in middle school and high school, started reading a lot of different books, a lot of jujitsu, chin na, small circle, kali/escrima with FCS kali, trained BJJ with chuck bradshaw and marcelo pereria,Muay Thai with Jason Goodall. Whatever I could get my hands in or on, I was hooked. But the one thing I learned from every style and teacher is that discipline and humility are the keys to unlocking skill. Styles are a label that seperates, learning to fight effectively is not a style. As Bruce Lee said, "Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it."
I have grappled with 275 pound guys and choked them out, I have sparred or boxed with guys with hands you couldnt see move. What I've learned, after lots of bruises, bloody noses and broken knuckles. Winning is about being able to adapt, learning to identify the opponents weakness and exploit it, not just being the fastest or strongest. Granted those things are major assets, but winning is a state of mind, a clarity of thought and focus. Not to beat a dead horse but bruce lee said this when asked about his thoughts when facing an opponent, he said, "There is no opponent", when asked why he said this, "Because the word ''l'' does not exist.
A good fight should be like a small play...but played seriously. When the opponent expands, l contract. When he contracts, l expand. And when there is an opportunity... l do not hit...it (his fist) hits all by itself."
Deacon
Well-Known Fanatic
Not alot of Wing Chun around anymore. Here are a few:
http://www.wingchun....ols/usa/ok.html
http://www.wingchunokc.com/
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Krav Maga?
The problem about Martial arts (and I've studied a couple-few) is that people equate them with fighting skill.
-If you want the pursuit of the art, find a martial art that fits you.
-If you want to defend yourself, take a self-defense course, preferably one taught by one of the LEO's in our community.
-If you just want to fight, learn to drink.
aestus
Well-Known Fanatic
I'd say learn a combination of them all or take a mixed martial arts class that is dedicated to actual street fighting. My Dad used to have a saying: "A drunken brawler with years of fighting in the streets will break any black belt in Karate or Tae Kwon Do with years of tournament fighting."
My Father taught Tae Kwon Do. Not the sport, but the actual martial art. He hated anything that related to tournaments or competition fighting because he felt it diluted the mindset and the art form and also felt that the sport removed the lethality behind the self defense art. My father learned as a young boy in Korea and learned from the masters who originally used martial arts to defend themselves against the Japanese. He pretty much grew up fighting in the streets and scavenging for scraps in Korea before enlisting in the ROK army to fight along side the US in Vietnam. He made 7th Dan blackbelt almost 20 years ago. I may not be 100% correct, but he may still be to this day one of the highest ranking black belts in Oklahoma.
Students from my Dad's school were notorious for getting disqualified in tournaments for "over-excessive" force. It's not that my Dad trained a bunch of killers, but he taught the art form the way it originally was intended, a lethal self-defense art. He forbade most of his students from fighting in tournaments and didn't really support anyone who fought in them. He forbade me from having anything to do with competition fighting and beat my @$$ if I ever told anyone I knew Tae Kwon Do or used it in any way to show off and get something from it. He was definitely old school. In the late 70's, he actually taught self defense classes to his unit in Ft. Sill when he was enlisted with the US Army as a Corporal.
He called it quits about 15 years ago after being jaded with Tae Kwon Do becoming a sport. I also probably had a big factor in him calling it quits because I was a huge disappointment to him in not carrying the mantle of continuing the art. We joke about it now, but I can still feel the disappointment that I never really took his instruction seriously... mainly because he was always 10x harder on me and I was forced at the age of 2 to learn.
The one thing I learned from him is that street fights are dirty. Surviving means doing cheap things to exert as much pain and lethal force necessary to subdue the attacker. If it takes more than 2-3 moves to counter or defend against an attacker, then you're doing it wrong. If at any point in time you have an opportunity to run, then run Forest, run!
Whoops, I went way off topic here. Sorry, didn't mean to talk about my Dad, heheh. Personally, I wish I had taken wrestling or boxing. My cousins would often demolish me when we would get into fights and they were able to get me to the ground. I've been interested in Krav Maga, as well. I still do some Epee fencing from time to time, but other than poking people with flimsy swords, I haven't really been active in H2H self defense.
My Father taught Tae Kwon Do. Not the sport, but the actual martial art. He hated anything that related to tournaments or competition fighting because he felt it diluted the mindset and the art form and also felt that the sport removed the lethality behind the self defense art. My father learned as a young boy in Korea and learned from the masters who originally used martial arts to defend themselves against the Japanese. He pretty much grew up fighting in the streets and scavenging for scraps in Korea before enlisting in the ROK army to fight along side the US in Vietnam. He made 7th Dan blackbelt almost 20 years ago. I may not be 100% correct, but he may still be to this day one of the highest ranking black belts in Oklahoma.
Students from my Dad's school were notorious for getting disqualified in tournaments for "over-excessive" force. It's not that my Dad trained a bunch of killers, but he taught the art form the way it originally was intended, a lethal self-defense art. He forbade most of his students from fighting in tournaments and didn't really support anyone who fought in them. He forbade me from having anything to do with competition fighting and beat my @$$ if I ever told anyone I knew Tae Kwon Do or used it in any way to show off and get something from it. He was definitely old school. In the late 70's, he actually taught self defense classes to his unit in Ft. Sill when he was enlisted with the US Army as a Corporal.
He called it quits about 15 years ago after being jaded with Tae Kwon Do becoming a sport. I also probably had a big factor in him calling it quits because I was a huge disappointment to him in not carrying the mantle of continuing the art. We joke about it now, but I can still feel the disappointment that I never really took his instruction seriously... mainly because he was always 10x harder on me and I was forced at the age of 2 to learn.
The one thing I learned from him is that street fights are dirty. Surviving means doing cheap things to exert as much pain and lethal force necessary to subdue the attacker. If it takes more than 2-3 moves to counter or defend against an attacker, then you're doing it wrong. If at any point in time you have an opportunity to run, then run Forest, run!
Whoops, I went way off topic here. Sorry, didn't mean to talk about my Dad, heheh. Personally, I wish I had taken wrestling or boxing. My cousins would often demolish me when we would get into fights and they were able to get me to the ground. I've been interested in Krav Maga, as well. I still do some Epee fencing from time to time, but other than poking people with flimsy swords, I haven't really been active in H2H self defense.
shootingbuff
Well-Known Fanatic
Theres a lot of good information that has been put out. Mindset, be the first with the most and disable. If you want to play nice Akido / Hap-ki-do / Ju Jitsu to include Judo. Thing is The problem with playing nice is the other/s may not be willing to play nice. Like with a CCW awareness is the best defense second to the naked man approach of course.
KeithCross
Well-Known Fanatic
Wow! Some of you guys are pretty hardcore!
I was gonna start my own thread with this question but I thought I'd drop it in here and see what kind of response I get. Here goes...
Is there a decent (meaning - not the best way, but better than nothing) way to learn some of this at home? I found the gracieuniversity.com website where the younger Gracies teach BJJ through online video lessons and my kids sons have been having a lot of fun with it! I know there's no substitute for actual training from someone who's been there and done that, but I just don't have the budget for it. Any suggestions?
I was gonna start my own thread with this question but I thought I'd drop it in here and see what kind of response I get. Here goes...
Is there a decent (meaning - not the best way, but better than nothing) way to learn some of this at home? I found the gracieuniversity.com website where the younger Gracies teach BJJ through online video lessons and my kids sons have been having a lot of fun with it! I know there's no substitute for actual training from someone who's been there and done that, but I just don't have the budget for it. Any suggestions?
Corey
Well-Known Fanatic
16 oz gloves and head gear
Step 1. Make sure you know what a jab is as well as a cowboy punch "in real life"
if you throw a cowboy punch and they snap your head back with a jab you will know what I am talking about
Step 2 add kicks; make a rule each engagement must start with a kick or fake kick
YouTube Kimbo Slice he is a street brawler,
If a fight turns to ground fighting there are no rules strikes to the throat, back of the head, kidneys ...
My thoughts on ground fighting in real life is "not for me"
Good luck consider boxing a "fun cardio session" lol
Step 1. Make sure you know what a jab is as well as a cowboy punch "in real life"
if you throw a cowboy punch and they snap your head back with a jab you will know what I am talking about
Step 2 add kicks; make a rule each engagement must start with a kick or fake kick
YouTube Kimbo Slice he is a street brawler,
If a fight turns to ground fighting there are no rules strikes to the throat, back of the head, kidneys ...
My thoughts on ground fighting in real life is "not for me"
Good luck consider boxing a "fun cardio session" lol
Definite limitations with online training, but it beats nothing. Rich Franklin and his buddies started off with books and videos and trained in his backyard.
KeithCross
Well-Known Fanatic
Any books or videos that you might reccommend?
shakkazombie
Fanatic
There are a lot of good videos out there. The Sayoc DVDs are all rad (though I'm partial, see above), and I actually picked up some good boxing pointers from watching Crazy Monkey fighting videos on Youtube (specifically a video about the left hook), so I would guess that their DVDs are probably pretty good.
As with any skill you're trying to build, it's important to have an instructor at least check your progress, if not oversee it directly. There are training programs I'm aware of that are fantastic, and require students to practice on their own, but attend a seminar or gathering yearly to have their skills audited by their superiors.
Long story short: you can pick up a good bit of info at home, but you need to seek training to move beyond low-level understanding.
dennishoddy
Moderator
LOL! There are several methods of distracting a perp to get to a gun..
