I may have almost accomplished the greatest challenge known to man! I may have convinced my wife to buy me a Saiga 12 as my Christmas present. If I get one, there is a very good chance that I may make another appearance at the High Plains and many 3 Gun Matches!!
Saiga 12
- Thread starter imacgyver
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Dieseltech09
Well-Known Fanatic
If you havent found one yet, Tommy at Sooner State Pawn had one on the shelf today when I was there. He also quoted someone on OSA $625 OTD.
drmitchgibson
The white Morgan Freeman
Steve at Cold Hand Arms sells them frequently. FYI.
Robusto
Well-Known Fanatic
Honey Badger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg
drmitchgibson
The white Morgan Freeman
Good call, Dan.
When considering firearm purchases I always try to as much research as possible.
Several complaints exist about unmodified Saiga 12s
Reliability because the action is not the same - similar to an AK but that gas is not directly forcing back the piston but with the use of an additional part.
Gas ports on the barrel not lining up with the gas tube can also lead to malfs.
Magazine springs are very strong and when loaded make it hard to load securely.
Trigger pull is not smooth and feels awkward
Sight radius is short and sit much higher than the barrel and can make close range shots harder
Plastic buffer pad to minimize the rearward travel distance of the piston beyond its operating range is subject to breaking
That being said - why do I want one and why would I use it in a match?
Because Honey Badger don't care!
Several complaints exist about unmodified Saiga 12s
Reliability because the action is not the same - similar to an AK but that gas is not directly forcing back the piston but with the use of an additional part.
Gas ports on the barrel not lining up with the gas tube can also lead to malfs.
Magazine springs are very strong and when loaded make it hard to load securely.
Trigger pull is not smooth and feels awkward
Sight radius is short and sit much higher than the barrel and can make close range shots harder
Plastic buffer pad to minimize the rearward travel distance of the piston beyond its operating range is subject to breaking
That being said - why do I want one and why would I use it in a match?
Because Honey Badger don't care!
drmitchgibson
The white Morgan Freeman
The trigger is not bad, but not great. Nothing that would cause any bad shooting. The difficultly in loading mags is not due to the springs, but due to the lack of relief of the closed bolt- it has to be modified for this to be an operation that can be done reliably and repeatably. I nearly always loaded mine on an open bolt, but that is an operation that must be done "untactically".. Gas port issues are on early models, but mine did have a piece of debris in one of the three ports I had to punch out with a scriber. The sights are accurate, but the front bead looks like it was made by a retarded chimp with a sharp hand file. Reliability on mine was better than fair, but the barrel extension has a hood that is too short to allow low-quality 2-3/4" shells to feed consistently. It can be extended by a welder to eliminate the problem permanently, or you can use more expensive ammo. Cheap 2-3/4" shells are typically 1/8" shorter than quality shells, and have a slanted and possibly otherwise deformed crimped end that stubs really well against the barrel hood, which also nicely deforms it further. Cycling issues tend to be linked to people installing gas reduction parts AND using cheap bulk-pack ammo. I only put about 1K rounds through mine, so I'm not sure about the long-term effects of the piston assembly possibly peening the rear of the receiver.
Is it a modified trigger assembly using a bar to actually release the hammer? Is it the 19in barrel? Have you tried any of the chokes? What about setting the adjustable gas plug that also has come up as having some issues? From what I've read there are models with 4 ports how many variations exist?
I guess some opinions on the mags were being less stiff would remedy the tension between the shell and the bolt. Some models have a bolt catch, but they don't look very good at all. They were designed for 3in shells but can run 2 3/4 but complaints were on the load as well. From some videos of saigas with the dust covers removed the piston head could travel outside of the constraints of the gas tube and jam upon re entry.
I think we will need to get together so I can take a closer look at a real life "unmodified" and I use quotes because they have had to have been modified from original design in order to be allowed for import - so "modifying" it back to match an AK would really be "unmodified". Hmmm
I guess some opinions on the mags were being less stiff would remedy the tension between the shell and the bolt. Some models have a bolt catch, but they don't look very good at all. They were designed for 3in shells but can run 2 3/4 but complaints were on the load as well. From some videos of saigas with the dust covers removed the piston head could travel outside of the constraints of the gas tube and jam upon re entry.
I think we will need to get together so I can take a closer look at a real life "unmodified" and I use quotes because they have had to have been modified from original design in order to be allowed for import - so "modifying" it back to match an AK would really be "unmodified". Hmmm
drmitchgibson
The white Morgan Freeman
I sold mine a year ago, maybe more. It was just going to be too much trouble to make it 3-Gun useful. I don't remember who does the barrel hood mod, but it was cheap, like $75. It's on a Saiga forum online somewhere. I also couldn't find a source for chokes without doing a ton of research, so I gave up. I bet they're easier to find now. Someone is also undercutting a relief into the bolt so that mags are easy to seat when loading on a closed bolt. You can make one 3-Gun ready with the minimum mods for far less than an R&R gun, but it's still going to cost two times as much as the base gun, or more.
The bolt catch is on all models, but you have to pull the action open and then hold it while sliding the catch hook into position and then release it. It's not a big deal, but it isn't quick. The S12 is exactly like an AK except for the lack of pistol grip, the bolt catch, the piston puck, gas valve, and the enlarged components due to the larger cartridge.
Also, I was able to satisfactorily avoid the pistol grip mod by buying the skeleton stock. The mod would be better.
The bolt catch is on all models, but you have to pull the action open and then hold it while sliding the catch hook into position and then release it. It's not a big deal, but it isn't quick. The S12 is exactly like an AK except for the lack of pistol grip, the bolt catch, the piston puck, gas valve, and the enlarged components due to the larger cartridge.
Also, I was able to satisfactorily avoid the pistol grip mod by buying the skeleton stock. The mod would be better.
The most frustrating part of 3 gun is the shotgun - learn how to load - shell caddies - etc... It's easiest to shoot but so much in dealing with the physical mechanics. For me, I know the AK well and thought having a magazine fed shotgun with standard rifle grip (which I really like on shotguns and rifles - but that was all I grew up using) would be right up my alley.
I figured I could get the saiga - some extended mags - chokes - minor mods (reliability kit / front sight) and be ready for some 3 gunnin
Hmmm...
I figured I could get the saiga - some extended mags - chokes - minor mods (reliability kit / front sight) and be ready for some 3 gunnin
Hmmm...
drmitchgibson
The white Morgan Freeman
You could run a stock Saiga with no problem if you use high brass shotshells. I don't remember the brand I was using to avoid the bulk pack problems, but you can go to WMart and open up boxes until you find them. They're like $5-$7 per box. They're dimensionally correct, and you don't have any low power issues screwing up your cycling. If you do that, all you'll need are some 12 round mags and some mag clips to hold them to your belt/pockets. And a mag coupler.
Hey, just because the front sight looks like it was shaped by a retarded chimp doesn't mean it's inaccurate. But a barrel-mounted sight tower would be better.
Hey, just because the front sight looks like it was shaped by a retarded chimp doesn't mean it's inaccurate. But a barrel-mounted sight tower would be better.
