True according to USPSA rules, a clear answer to the problem. At Heartland it's not a USPSA match but a match originally intended to be a carry gun match. So...if a bullet passed thru a bad guy and hit another one behind him, win, win. But, if the one behind him was an innocent bystander, not so good. Fun match to shoot with a carry gun, makes you realize what limitations you really have when a little pressure is on you. This is a good example though of how almost all situations are covered in the current USPSA rulebook.
Rules Discussion
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True according to USPSA rules, a clear answer to the problem. At Heartland it's not a USPSA match but a match originally intended to be a carry gun match. So...if a bullet passed thru a bad guy and hit another one behind him, win, win. But, if the one behind him was an innocent bystander, not so good. Fun match to shoot with a carry gun, makes you realize what limitations you really have when a little pressure is on you. This is a good example though of how almost all situations are covered in the current USPSA rulebook.
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
Robert this is where you are wrong. This isn't an IPSC or IDPA match. David sets that stuff intentionally. It's almost like he encourages the gaming. There was a stage a few months ago were If you were lucky enough you could shoot all the knock downs through the earlier target. I was shooting two guns that night. The first gun I took the conservative approach and the second I got doubles on the entire array. Everyone thought it was cool beans.
nikatkimber
Well-Known Fanatic
I was shooting an action pistol match, and we were supposed to download our mags to 10 at the start. I forgot on one stage, loaded 15, which meant I didn't have to perform the mag change. I realized as soon as the stage was over, the RO did not. I informed him of what I'd done. He did not penalize me (not a sanctioned match). I had done my duty IMO.
If I know it's wrong, I won't do it intentionally. If I do and get penalized, my fault. If I realize it first, I will inform the RO. Up to them.
If I know it's wrong, I won't do it intentionally. If I do and get penalized, my fault. If I realize it first, I will inform the RO. Up to them.
yeah, there's for fun matches of different types around, I don't think they could require you to download a mag at a USPSA match. There are some unloaded starts but the number of rounds in the mags is described in the different division rules. You mentioned it, they gave you a break. As long as anyone else making the same mistake was treated the same, all was for fun. They could have penalized you per shot for every round over 10 fired without a mag change if that was the stage description. The important thing is, when you looked in the mirror that night, you know you did the right thing by bringing it up to them. You are tonights winner of the BS badge of ethics.
The Antichrome
Moderator
Understood. None of my comments are about outlaw matches, which is why I havent commented on the multigun rifle issues.
I am referring only to matches that adhere to a simple set of universal rules set by a recognized organization. Gun racing in the USPSA is my game...playing 'horse' in the driveway is not;-)
nikatkimber
Well-Known Fanatic
Yeah, my point was that it was a rule; not what the rule was. And yes, if they had penalized me, I wouldn't have had any room to complain.
Gaming I'm fine with. Unless the match director or RO has specifically allowed everyone to do it, I wouldn't "bend" the rules either.
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
The more I see these discussions the more I realize the need for all the USPSA rules. They have everything covered. You're either right or wrong. Nobody tries to skirt the rules because it's already been made legal or illegal. You don't have those ugly behind the back whispers of that guy us a cheater because you simply can't get away with anything.
The Antichrome
Moderator
My work here is done.
shootingbuff
Well-Known Fanatic
From my point of view it shouldn't be used at all. It lends itself to be used derogatory. Again if allowed / in the rules it's okay, if not it is not and may be cheating if done knowingly that it is against the rules.
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
Lol!
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
Actually use the term gamer as a compliment. If someone on my squad finds a better way TI shoot a stage they get an Accurate Ron sticker for their holster.
shootingbuff
Well-Known Fanatic
That is cool, and maybe a way of breaking the stereotypical negative cogitation of the term locally.
The Antichrome
Moderator
No hate whatsoever! This is a fantastic conversation. The diversity of opinions and attitudes is interesting.
shootingbuff
Well-Known Fanatic
I have / was thinking the same thing and this discussion has stayed civil. Credit goes to everyone who has posted. It seems everyone wants to do the right thing by the shooter. It is just little nuances that separate us.
I have to say this has been the best thread here and of this type that I have read.
Please let me apologize to the masses for being opinionated, long winded, and as clear as muddy water. If there is an ignore feature just use it and ignore my post.
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
The term "make ready" does not suddenly make the gun unsafe. If he dropped his gun standing in the box and one of our many un official RO's such as me said "make it hot" rather than the official "make ready" then the shooter bumps his gun and it hits the floor unloaded is it a DQ? Nope! The official range command was not given and the gun was not hot. Holster up and try again. You see my point?
shootingbuff
Well-Known Fanatic
I think everyone agrees safety is paramount and fun is second - at least I do. I think JT feels an unloaded gun is safe in the scenario given. In a different discipline it was okay if on line you drop an unloaded firearm. I understand this is mostly a USPSA rules based discussion. My point is what is considered a safety violation and for that one needs to turn to general firearms handling, range safety rules, and the rules governing the competition / match.
Here is a question does the RO/SO watch the shooter or the shooter shooting? I grew up watching the shooter and feel that is their main focus. If they watch the shooter shoot then is not detrimental with the actions of the RO/SO and in itself a safety violation?
One more when the RO/SO allows the shooter to cover their self when drawing is that a safety violation?
Not trying to change the subject, but what I see JT trying to do is against some rules, but there are other things that happen nearly constantly that have not been brought up that should. I think the range Nazi thread is a great idea., especially when it comes to safety issues.
Here is a question does the RO/SO watch the shooter or the shooter shooting? I grew up watching the shooter and feel that is their main focus. If they watch the shooter shoot then is not detrimental with the actions of the RO/SO and in itself a safety violation?
One more when the RO/SO allows the shooter to cover their self when drawing is that a safety violation?
Not trying to change the subject, but what I see JT trying to do is against some rules, but there are other things that happen nearly constantly that have not been brought up that should. I think the range Nazi thread is a great idea., especially when it comes to safety issues.
shootingbuff
Well-Known Fanatic
I understand what you are saying and you might want to have that addressed in the rules.
jtischauser
I'm addicted to kicking ass
It sounds like you see my point. I am all about making 120% sure that everyone is safe. If I see someone doing something close to safe like sweeping themselves when reholstering an unloaded pistol I go mention it to them immediately.
I don't take DQ's softly. I love to DQ guys like Tony Wall for breaking the 210. I even Brag about that one! It was awesome! I can hardly wait to DQ Burki. Sometimes u gotta learn a lesson the hard way.
I got DQ'd my first time after driving 3 hours to shoot a 3 match in Arkansas. I set down my shotgun and the safety wasn't on. I had to watch everyone shoot 2-3 more stages then drive 3 more hours home. The gun was pointed away from everyone sitting safely on a table. Not a chance in the world that it could go off. Should I have been DQ'd? Yes! I broke the rules. I learned my lesson. Should I have been DQ'd for an entire match? I guess that depends on how much of a lesson you think I need to learn.
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