Rules Discussion

[BLR]

I am so new at this that i really don't have a horse in this race, but it seems to me what we are really talking about here is a persons ability to think and their ethics, both differ from person to person. If you can think of a way to gain a competitive advantage on a stage within the rules more power to you! As far as ethics that is a can of worms to dive into but it has been my observation that most people that break the rules knowing what they are doing eventually get whats coming to them. I personally don't want to be one of those people, but i am very competitive and will try to gain advantages within the rules.

 

[Pstmstr]

if its wrong, its illegal, if its illegal, it is wrong.

If the RO doesnt call it, is right, if the RO does, its wrong.

If you try to pull one over on the RO, its cheating.

This topic gets brought up every now and then. Usually from some old dog who buys and sells guns more than they practice with them.

As an old dog who buys and sells more guns than they practice with, I see a sport where some think that "ethics" is not getting caught by the RO. Running a stage the best way you can, within the rules is not an issue. Doing anything you know is wrong or intentionally trying to pull one over on an inexperienced RO is not ethical. I see some new shooters making honest mistakes while I see some great shooters trying to get away with everything they can. I also see great shooters playing by the rules. Are they placing themselves at a disadvantage, probably, but they usually win anyway. If they don't, they know within themselves they did their best to play fair. I know it's just a game and the reason I started shooting it was to improve my shooting skills. Maybe if I sold fewer guns and practiced more, that can still happen. I really don't have a problem with someone shooting a 2nd gun at a classifier as long as the match gun is shot first and was not what I was referring to. Doing less than your honest best on a classifier or shooting the same gun a 2nd time because you screwed up the first time is. Maybe it's the larger prizes, sponsorships, global warming, or whatever but it seems to me that ethics is taking a back seat more often these days. I'd say if you know it's wrong or questionable, an ethical shooter wouldn't do it.

 

[Pstmstr]

Ethical golfers play the ball as it lies, take all penalties, and pick the ball up when it plops into the bottom of the cup, even when they are just playing by themselves. That sport also has less ethics these days. I'm blaming Tiger Woods, Karma seemed to catch up with him eventually.

 

[foghorn918]

I understand that, but new shooters understand the rules by shooting at the range they are at, and by the RO That guided them in their first matches. One can shoot a USPSA match without being a member. They don't have a rule book in front of them.

As a new shooter I watch all the other guys to see how they run the stage. Not that I can come close to what they do, but it helps me make a plan for me.

 

[Pstmstr]

As a new shooter I watch all the other guys to see how they run the stage. Not that I can come close to what they do, but it helps me make a plan for me.

As do most new and average shooters just out to have fun. That's why the good guys have a moral responsibility to do it right.

 

[J.t. Stapleton]

"What if you see everyone else doing it? Is it fair to follow the rules or follow the new stage interpretation?" J.T.

Uhhhh call the M.D. ??? it is exactly this kind of shituff that gets stages thrown out and the guys who "went along" or orriginally "changed the stage" to be disparaged at a latter date,

BUT the question STILL REMAINS , If you are holding in your hand a copy of the match rules that say "no starting with ammunition in hand", and you ask the R.O. if you can start with some ammo in your hand....is that gaming, or going too far? and if the guy doesn't now any better and says....uhhmm I guess that is ok....does that make it OK to start with ammo in your hand when you know darn good and well that the rule book says no? That right there is the question, with no dancing around it....and NO!!! GUYS it IS just a QUESTION not a happening!!

It's funny you mention the ammo in hand thing. I've always wondered what the "rule" was but have never seen it. I've always ASSumed you weren't allowed even though I couldn't find it in the rules. Guess I've been doing it ethically correctly by stuffing my extra in my belt. Thanks for the rule Jesse, even if it is IPSC.

 

[shootingbuff]

Depends on mindset and if you are okay with taking the penalties. AFA gaming I dont believe in gaming. it is by the rules / stage description or its cheating. Because I opt for a different guide rod in my Glock isn't gaming - it helps me feel better about the guiderod and it aids somewhat in how the pistol handles and it is in the rules depending on division. Now if I load to a higher capacity than allowed then that is cheating even if I get away with it. Can I engage moving to the box or have to after I hit hte box? A step out at best is lack od SA and should get dinged. Do Iforget a mandated reload and hte RO/SO doesn't notice? opps you get dinged. Start hand holding ammo or other than prescribed starting position lol.
You get the idea. Either it is allowed or it's not. If it is, its by the rules. If it is not, it is cheating. That stated if you don't get caught is it cheating? Only your morales and values can answer that.

Edited to say wow I didnt note the 4 pages of this before i responed. Takes the fun out of mentioning the ammo in hand lol

 

[Pstmstr]

Now that we've got that all cleared up. Let's shoot. If everyone shoots to the best of their ability and adheres to the rules, it will remain a great sport. Now what can I stir up next?

 

[The Antichrome]

This is a fun thread!

 

[Pstmstr]

My user name should be Spoon since I like to stir stuff up. Seriously, it's a touchy subject but one I thought was worthy of discussion. Paypal donations accepted. I'm on a fixed income now and need some ammo for practice.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Cheaters never "win", "winners" never cheat.

theres a lot of karma in that idea. Plus, it's Roy Rogers and Gene Autry approved!

 

[shootingbuff]

Let me clarify my post (if I can) Many folks call modifying equipment as well as maybe coming up with a faster way of shooting a stage then the MD thought of as gaming. These things are not gaming and as long as it does not violate stage description or the core rules makes shooters and MDs better.
Giving a shooter a break, especially a new shooter is just good customer service if the RO/SO is uncertain as to the reason why whatever happened - happened, though a warning should be given. Some shooters, I am sure most if not all, have shot with those you don't even have to think about giving them a procedural, you just do. That is because they cheat. I feel at anytime the action is questionable the benefit of the doubt should be applied.
That stated the MD and RO/SO should give as clear of a stage description as possible to prevent any confusion or man up and take a licking when a thinking shooter out smarts the stage design.
You see what folks call gaming I call allowed. If it is not allowed then it is cheating and if that puts me in the Nazi group maybe understanding if that was the only way one is to get an advantage., well then you ain't all that.
I really don't care if someone makes up the rules, run outlaw or a sanctioned match as long as I know what the rules are and they are applied evenly across the board. My shooting only sucks becasue of me and not any set of rules. I can admit that, but there is no reason when there are rules that anyone has to compete against someone not following the rules.

 

[Rustyzx9]

When did gaming and cheating become interchanglbe terms?

 

[shootingbuff]

When did gaming and cheating become interchanglbe terms?

If that was for me my apologies for not being able to keep two thoughts separate. I had made the statement that what most folks call gaming I call allowed then I got long winded.

As far as interchangeable terms that might be because I have seen gaming called on taking an advantage of the rules as well as trying to circumvent them. Taking advantage is allowed and needs not be called anything and cheating is cheating.

I did not mean to infer the two terms were the same but have seen cheating called gaming so if asked I would respond with some could see it that way, but I hope I have stated clearly my point either it is allowed or it isn't. If it is not, it is cheating.

I am by no means educated, so enlighten me to what is gaming to the Red Dirt locals? Once I understand what the locals consider gaming I may have different input. I can admit my views come from my experiences and our experiences or perceptions along with terminology could be much different. Therefore to speak on the local level I would need a better understanding of what the term gaming means to you Red Dirt folk. lol If I offend there was no intent - I actually deleted that part lol

Hopefully I was at least as clear as muddy water.

 

[Jeff T.]

I believe in, agree with, play by, the rules. At the Heartland match a few weeks ago we had some poopers on the floor for the 2nd or 3rd shooting box of the stage. If you shot the first stage and hit low on the target at just the right angle you could hit 1 of the poppers. One of the early shooters in our group did this by accident. He had 1 less popper to shoot when he got to the designated box. Was he gaming? I think it was luck because he seemed surprised when the popper was already down. Several people after him and before me tried to do it as well. Only one succeeded. I didn't try, I am too short to make the angle work. Good for them for trying. They didn't break any rules.

 

[Rustyzx9]

If that was for me my apologies for not beiing able to keep two thougts seperate. I had made the statement that what most folks call gaming I call allowed then I got long winded.

I'm not throwing rocks at anyone. lol... The tone of the discussion seemed to be going that way. I've seen, first hand, people get upset when they see someone do something in a stage tht they didn't think of then cry foul and call the shooter a gamer as if that's a bad thing. Outsmarting stage designers is something that happens and is neither cheating or gaming in much the same way that a clever stage design stumps good shooters sometimes.

The rules are the rules and should be treated with respect but at the end of the day we are playing a game.

 

[shootingbuff]

I'm not throwing rocks at anyone. lol... The tone of the discussion seemed to be going that way. I've seen, first hand, people get upset when they see someone do something in a stage tht they didn't think of then cry foul and call the shooter a gamer as if that's a bad thing. Outsmarting stage designers is something that happens and is neither cheating or gaming in much the same way that a clever stage design stumps good shooters sometimes.

The rules are the rules and should be treated with respect but at the end of the day we are playing a game.

roger that and agree completely.

 

[The Antichrome]

...If you shot the first stage and hit low on the target at just the right angle you could hit 1 of the poppers. One of the early shooters in our group did this by accident. He had 1 less popper to shoot when he got to the designated box. Was he gaming?

Nope. Not gaming and not cheating...BUT...that situation requires an immediate stop and a mandatory re-shoot. Shoot throughs are specifically covered in the rulebook and the RO should know that. The shooter is neither penalized or rewarded for this. (BTW, thats a mistake in either stage design or stage construction)

 

[The Antichrome]

When did gaming and cheating become interchanglbe terms?

They are not interchangable terms.
They are two different things entirely.

 

[Pstmstr]

When did gaming and cheating become interchanglbe terms?

probably my fault by not being clearer. Let me try again, gaming: finding the best way to shoot the stage while following the rules and stage description. If a shooter thinks thru a stage and comes up with a plan that works, saves them time, and is not against the rules or stage design. Not a problem. As Master Chambers said, one of the things most shooters like about the sport is the ability to think thru the stage and come up with a plan that works for them.
cheating: doing something you know is against the rules, but thinking you won't get caught or get called on it. Or...but rarely by experienced shooters, doing something against the rules inadvertently. Probably cheating is too extreme a term in that instance.
I'm pretty sure that anyone who's been shooting a while knows the difference.