Rules Discussion

[The Antichrome]

If using a weight on the barrel vs a brake, is that gaming, or breaking the rules?
Bull barrell vs pencil barrel?

If the Division rules allow a weight on the barrel, then its legal, period.
If the Division rules allow a bull barrel, then its legal, period.
There is no gaming in this situation at all.

The 'massive' USPSA rulebook is almost 1/4" thick and it is a whopping 100 pages.
99% of what shooters need to know is contained in the appendix.

 

[Scott Hearn]

Scott, I respectfully disagree with your premise.
"...intended by the stage designer..." is absolutely not part of USPSA stage design.
USPSA stages are 'Freestyle' (unless they are standards exercises, classifiers, etc.)
Targets may all be shot as available from any safe position in any order.
Stage designers have a whole slew of tools at their disposal to compell you to do something one way or another.
But their 'intent' means nothing.

The only things that matter in a stage are:
#1. You shoot safely and within the rules.
#2. You have fun.
#3. You obtain as many points per second as possible.

Exactly. Agreed 100%. I should have used the word suggested in place of intended.

 

[The Antichrome]

... In your example, they should have specified no leaning on the rope if that was the intent of the stage designer...

It's difficult to specify such things...am I 'leaning on it'? Or just touching it? The solution is to have the rope in the proper position.
In this case, the stage constructors goofed a little and they were a bit lazy (the rope should have been a regulation height fault line)

 

[TroyF]

I guess bending is more what I'm referring to. Things that you know are wrong but you don't get caught at it. I understand it's a game (to most) and if there is a way to shoot a stage within the rules that no one has thought of yet, etc.
For example, take classifiers, I've seen shooters deliberately not shoot to their ability so they don't move up in classification. On the reverse side, I've seen a shooter do poorly and then reshoot the classifier again with a better score to be submitted for classification. To me, both are wrong, even though we have allowed it before at HH. I guess the more I RO, the more I notice things. I could be a range NAZI but I don't think that's right either.
Another example, at a match the other day, a shooter was in what I call the CLEET crouch with hand poised above his pistol. I asked him to stand natural with hands at naturally at sides. Turns out he was new and was fine the rest of the match.

On the Classifier example...
I usually shoot two, for different divisions. I dont get to shoot as much as some of you guys, so I try to grab as many classifiers as I can. I pay up front, before knowing the classifiers, and let the chips fall where they may. Odd thing tho, usually the second one is worse than the first one.

As long as one reshoots a Classifier, and it doesnt count for match score, I dont see an issue. The Classifier to me is about competing against yourself. If you get lucky and bump yourself up, youre only screwing yourself and it doesnt hurt anyone else. As long as that reshoot doesnt count for Match score..... All hou are doing is paying for the chance to improve your classification.

 

[dennishoddy]

The 'massive' USPSA rulebook is almost 1/4" thick and it is a whopping 100 pages.

Kind of the point of this whole thread.
There are too many "what if" questions.

 

[The Antichrome]

Kind of the point of this whole thread.
There are too many "what if" questions.

But Dennis, nearly all those 'what if' questions are easily answered in the rulebook.
Interpretations or rulings by the NROI are rare...just a few every year.
Every issue of Frontsight has Amidon explaining a few rules and how/why they are applied.
So often, its the same rules, over and over. It usually wouldnt even be an issue if the person asking would have just read the rulebook...and 99% of the time, they would have found the answer in the appendix.

 

[Rustyzx9]

My take on this is that unless something is specifically forbidden in stage design, it's good to go. Obviously saftety comes first. The "ribbon" stage being discussed is a great example because I think that the stage designer meant for the last array of targets to be engaged from both sides of the adjecent wall. The stage designer did not specify how this last array was to be shot so most all of us shot it in the quickest way possible which was all from one side. There were some people on the squad that had problems with this but the written stage brief said nothing about this situation. In my opinion the WSB is the stage designers way of dictating how the stage is to be shot. Gaming is part of things but blatant rule breaking shouldn't be...

 

[dennishoddy]

I understand that, but new shooters understand the rules by shooting at the range they are at, and by the RO That guided them in their first matches. One can shoot a USPSA match without being a member. They don't have a rule book in front of them.

 

[jtischauser]

I am never concerned in the slightest at a pistol match...but it's a big problem at some major 3 gun matches with Outlaw rules!!

Exactly! USPSA has too many rules but there are never discussions like this afterwards. The only discussion is usually about the RO's following the rules too closely and administering too many DQ's.

 

[KurtM]

Well lets take this one step farther. You know what you are doing is against the rules as written in the rule book, but the R.O. is new and you "jokingly" ask can I do this and he says...."well I guess that is OK" now what do you do? He said it was ok but is it ok???

Or what you know what you are doing is wrong and you do it anyway and no-one notices, and then latter you brag to your felow shooters about doing it? is that ok?? And lets say you have a fancy old shirt on while doing this does that make it better??

Let,s say you know what you are doing is specifically forbiden and can garner a D.Q. but you do it anyway and then ghost while they look for who did it and show up latter and act like nothing is wrong. is that OK?

 

[The Antichrome]

...One can shoot a USPSA match without being a member. They don't have a rule book in front of them.

That is the difference between being someone who shoots a match and a being a competitor.

Exactly! USPSA has too many rules but there are never discussions like this afterwards. The only discussion is usually about the RO's following the rules too closely and administering too many DQ's.

Too many rules? You make it sound like the USPSA rulebook rivals the IRS tax code.
Seriously, its 100 pages and a lot of it has to do with match administration and 'levels' of matches.
Tennis, golf, baseball, football...our rules are few, and simple.

 

[The Antichrome]

Well lets take this one step farther. You know what you are doing is against the rules as written in the rule book, but the R.O. is new and you "jokingly" ask can I do this and he says...."well I guess that is OK" now what do you do? He said it was ok but is it ok???

Or what you know what you are doing is wrong and you do it anyway and no-one notices, and then latter you brag to your felow shooters about doing it? is that ok?? And lets say you have a fancy old shirt on while doing this does that make it better??

Let,s say you know what you are doing is specifically forbiden and can garner a D.Q. but you do it anyway and then ghost while they look for who did it and show up latter and act like nothing is wrong. is that OK?

No to all of the above. Rules are either complied with, or broken.

 

[Deathtrap]

Rules are rules, you can do this but you cant do that. So that makes it real easy anything between there that doesnt contradict the stage rules is "gaming". if your looking for ethics go play golf. Competetive shooting is more like auto racing lots of room for interpretation.

 

[KurtM]

"What if you see everyone else doing it? Is it fair to follow the rules or follow the new stage interpretation?" J.T.

Uhhhh call the M.D. ??? it is exactly this kind of shituff that gets stages thrown out and the guys who "went along" or orriginally "changed the stage" to be disparaged at a latter date,

BUT the question STILL REMAINS , If you are holding in your hand a copy of the match rules that say "no starting with ammunition in hand", and you ask the R.O. if you can start with some ammo in your hand....is that gaming, or going too far? and if the guy doesn't now any better and says....uhhmm I guess that is ok....does that make it OK to start with ammo in your hand when you know darn good and well that the rule book says no? That right there is the question, with no dancing around it....and NO!!! GUYS it IS just a QUESTION not a happening!!

 

[Deathtrap]

Going to far IMO. If it's illegal and the RO says you can do it anyway that doesn't make it legal. If the RO tells me its alright to break out my gat and start dry firing at people that doesn't make it legal............ I'm pretty sure anyway

 

[mike cyrwus]

I guess bending is more what I'm referring to. Things that you know are wrong but you don't get caught at it.

if its wrong, its illegal, if its illegal, it is wrong.

If the RO doesnt call it, is right, if the RO does, its wrong.
If you try to pull one over on the RO, its cheating.

This topic gets brought up every now and then. Usually from some old dog who buys and sells guns more than they practice with them.

 

[aeropb]

What rules can you break without getting penalties?

 

[mike cyrwus]

What rules can you break without getting penalties?

the ones you dont get caught for doing.

 

[Pstmstr]

It's difficult to specify such things...am I 'leaning on it'? Or just touching it? The solution is to have the rope in the proper position.

In this case, the stage constructors goofed a little and they were a bit lazy (the rope should have been a regulation height fault line)

True. Sometimes the clubs don't have enough equipment to set up the correct height fault lines and in the interest of making creative stages, make this mistake.

 

[BLR]

WOW!!! Burki must not play golf.