NFA (BATFE approved and such)

[Tigerstripe]

so that i wont be hijacking any threads can the powers that be put this title on the board index?

id be glad to supply my knowledge and experience with others on the subject in our own little space.

 

[Midnight Raver]

What do you mean hijacking? You're not hijacking anything at all! General Discussion is basically for anything concerning firearms and such for the most part.

So by all means, post away!

 

[Tigerstripe]

i thought the carbine thread got carried away.

never mind.

 

[Midnight Raver]

If you are referring to the thread in the Wanted section, read the Gunshop rules. We usually don't need to get involved, but sometimes threads of that type get derailed from their intended purpose. No disrespect is intended by bringing this to people's attention here. In fact, it has probably happened maybe a half dozen times in our history as Palmetto Shooters Forum. We do not like to point out things because everyone should be able to enjoy themselves and speak their minds.

That being said, we only ask that people let others do their business in the Gunshop areas without adding too much posting other than the business at hand. Besides, we can all have more fun discussing things at large everywhere else ok? So, let's have some discussions!

 

[PCShogun]

OK, I got an NFA question:

Why, if full auto weapons are banned if manufactured after 1986 (?) do I keep seeing what look like NEW full auto guns in the hands of civilians. We had an H&K 23E at our 2011 shoot and I've always wondered about that.

also, shows like Sons of Guns are always making full auto guns, I assume to eventually sell. How are they getting away with it?

I'd love to get a PPS-43 in full auto some day.

 

[11B3XCIB]

The new FA guns in the hands of the civilians are probably people with either 1) refurbished but original FA guns or 2) dealers/manufacturers who have paid the SOT, or special occupation tax in the following categories:
1 Importer of Firearms (Including "Any Other Weapons") $1000.00
2 Manufacturer of Firearms (Including "Any Other Weapons") $1000.00
3 Dealer of Firearms (Including "Any Other Weapons") $ 500.00
4 Importer of Firearms (Including "Any Other Weapons") $ 500.00
5 Manufacturer of Firearms (Including "Any Other Weapons") $ 500.00

I think number 5 allows 30(this number came from a guy that used to build guns) FA items. He let his license lapse and had to destroy all of them. I wonder by "destroy", he meant "bury in the yard"...but anyways...

To become a fully licensed manufacturer to cover ALL your bases, it may be cheaper to transfer a pre-ban FA weapon.

I know a good deal about suppressors but not F.A. items. If I got anything wrong, please correct me.

 

[Tigerstripe]

rather than destroy they can be sold to another dealer.

ive seen post 86 registered recievers on sturmgewehr for $250.00.

good question where do they all go? i never thought of them being destroyed.

in the beginning that was my idea. get the manufacturing lic and buy a post sample MP5K, make a few M-16s, Mac 10s and just pay the lic every year, just to be able to have them. but no you have to show sales, business, turnover or they take the lic.

 

[Clicker]

Shogun the HK 23e (clone BTW) was brand new but it's a title 1 gun - that's right a semi! How is that possible you ask well it comes down to the "conversion device" which is considered the machine gun. The beauty of the HK roller locked guns is they can be transformed into machine guns in several ways, the most common of which is by using a transferable sear. The tiny sear is the registered part and fits into the trigger pack and once installed along with a FA BCG you have a machine gun.

There are companies now manufacturing HK clones like the 23e, MP5, 93, and 91 so you can own a brand new semi auto host gun for your machine gun sear.

There are also plenty of new registered Sten & Sterling "tube" receivers which were never built. You can buy the tube and send it off to a gunsmith to build a brand new Sten or Sterling.

Be sure to hit me up at ShootzenFest on Saturday and I'll show you the HK sear along with a registered HK trigger pack. We can delve into the post sample side of the business then also.

 

[PCShogun]

Sure, I'll try and do that. I hope to have a saw horse table set up with part of my collection on it.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Since there's not a separate NFA sub-forum yet, can I post a question for anyone who knows the answer?

I just watched the videos from Shootzenfest 2012 (looked like fun) and there was more than one fully auto rifle out there. I already have a few NFA items but don't know the process or the price for a weapon to be F/A. I wouldn't want to shoot my 300BLK on F/A at around a buck apiece a round, but a three shot selective fire switch would be awesome! Someone knows.....

 

[11B3XCIB]

I know this isn't really the answer to your question...FA stuff isn't my game but suppressors are. If you are paying a dollar a round, or there abouts, for 300 Black, I'd take the NFA money and buy reloading gear and roll your own. It'd pay for itself quickly depending on how much shooting you do.

 

[Clicker]

Since there's not a separate NFA sub-forum yet, can I post a question for anyone who knows the answer?

I just watched the videos from Shootzenfest 2012 (looked like fun) and there was more than one fully auto rifle out there. I already have a few NFA items but don't know the process or the price for a weapon to be F/A. I wouldn't want to shoot my 300BLK on F/A at around a buck apiece a round, but a three shot selective fire switch would be awesome! Someone knows.....

I'll take a stab.
Most semi's in 300 BO are for the AR15 family so the uppers will fit on a full auto M16 lower and function as long as it's equipped with a FA BCG.
You can easily pull doubles and triples with a FA M16. Some guys will install the 3 rd burst triggers in their lowers but they tire of them quickly.

Here's the catch - any machine gun that can be legally owned by Joe Q. Public is referred to as a "transferable" gun. These had to be registered as machine guns prior to May 19th 1986. So you can see there are a finite number of these guns which explains the ever increasing prices they command.

Prices for "shooter grade" M16 lowers start around 10K and climb from there. HK toys are even worse.

 

[Tigerstripe]

sorry 11b but

BUY THE GUN BUY THE GUN BUY THE GUN

if you buy the RR (registered reciever) you will reload plus you can get all kinds of uppers for it.

as i said the money is the hardest part so,

find the gun

save the money

go see Bob. (Upstate Armory Group)

 

[11B3XCIB]

Hey no need to apologize. To each his own. I'm all about spending money on guns and ammo but I don't want to fund mag dumps unless its at work for free. Although, when it counts, I'm a precision shot type of guy.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Thanks to all who have replied thus far but just so I understand, is the situation that because we're living in post 1986 and the ARs I would like to put a 3-shot burst selector switch in are new, that it would cost me $10k to do this, even IF it could be done? If that's the situation, I could do a lot of other productive things with $10k. And 11B, I'm totally with you on making a shot count. This was just an idea for a new toy that I think I'm going to have to do without.

 

[rotarymike]

The law is basically thus:

Private citizens can only own pre-1986 registered fully automatic weapons. These are called transferable weapons; for ownership to change hands a background check through the BATFE and $200 tax stamp are required PRIOR to sale.

Since the supply was cut off by law in '86, prices have shot through the roof. Complicating matters are what, exactly, the BATFE considers an NFA weapon. In some cases, just the sear for a FA gun is the NFA "gun". In some cases, a receiver (or part of a receiver, such as an AR/M-16 lower).

Further complicating what you want to do is the fact that 3-round burst fire is technically fully automatic fire. More than 1 bullet per pull of trigger = FA.

Since your AR was built as a non-NFA gun, adding the fire control parts to make it one can be done two ways. One way will land you in prison - that is to just put the burst trigger parts, sear, safety, BC, etc. that are needed to make the gun fire full-auto. The legal way would be to buy either a transferable drop-in sear or M16 lower on the NFA market (background check, stamp, etc) and assemble it into what you and I would think of as a "gun" using the necessary parts. As supply has dwindled, you may end up spending $10,000 on an AR sear - a very tiny, simple part. But to the BATFE, that's the FA gun.

IMHO, real FA guns are more of a collectors' toy than anything. They will appreciate in value, but they're too expensive and restricted to shoot casually. Using one for self-defense would be a legal nightmare, even if justified. Hunting with FA is not allowed in most places. Most shooting sports don't allow FA (there are actually a bunch of exceptions to that fact, but competitively shooting FA is a well-heeled sport... akin to privateer NASCAR racing).

If you want 'sorta' FA, but legal, look into a slidefire stock (or how to bumpfire). They're fun and legal for now; might not get the cyclic rate on a real FA, but close enough.

IF you're really intent on owning NFA firearms, there are ways to reduce costs that mostly involve going into business making or selling them, with all the attendant costs of starting a new business. The BATFE looks at these folks pretty closely, so if you're thinking of running a 'sham' business (hobby business to them) they will pull your license, and your NFA assets have to be rather quickly sold to another dealer or destroyed.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Thanks, Mike. That's all I needed to know.

Regards,

LiveFreeorDie
"Making every (single) shot count!"

 

[Tigerstripe]

Mike, any machine work, even drilling, is illegal too. the as is AR has to be milled to accept a drop in auto sear and another option ($7,000) the lightning link.

if your as is gun is milled for these the BATFE will assume you have an unregistered sear or link.

actually you arent supposed to own M-16 lower reciever parts (fire control group) AND an as is AR.

as for to expensive to shoot casually? thats what i do with mine. 22 upper is a blast. some were demilled, meaning chopped in half. did not devalue them after an expert welds it back together. parts will wear but the reciever will last.

i cant support this but i read that LEGAL NFA guns have only been used in 2 incidenses, i think since the 1986 ban and one of them was somehow "justified".

i used to shoot mine every few days but i lost my range here at home to my wifes pool, but i still love her and just shoot in another direction or with my machine gun owner neighbor house.

maybe its just me. brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp love a mag dump.

 

[rotarymike]

I've read that statement as well - and one of the murderers was a cop, who had access to machine guns through work.

I did not know about the machining - I do remember people talking about 'low-shelf' and 'high-shelf' semiauto AR receivers.

One thing I've always wondered, about NFA ARs in particular. If you have an M-16 (ie, not a DIAS but a pinned sear) and the receiver holes wear out such that timing is off, can you replace the lower with another? Is the M16 sear the NFA part, or is the serialized lower?

 

[Paco]

With the M16/AR-15, there are 3 FA versions: (as I understand it)

The registered receiver "RR" (an M16/converted AR-15) - has the sear pin.
The registered drop-in automatic sear "RDIAS" - no sear pin, not bound to a single receiver.
The registered lightning link "RLL" - no sear pin, only fires in full auto, not bound to a single receiver.

One thing I've always wondered, about NFA ARs in particular. If you have an M-16 (ie, not a DIAS but a pinned sear) and the receiver holes wear out such that timing is off, can you replace the lower with another? Is the M16 sear the NFA part, or is the serialized lower?

The lower is the serialized part. This is why the KNS anti-rotation pins are seen on a lot of the RR's. They stop the pins from turning in their holes, which is what causes the wear on the holes as I understand it.