MD's - I have questions about long range steel

[baker3gun]

I'm new to stage design.

I have some dimensional questions about long range steel. We have assorted gong sizes and can place them anywhere out to 500 yds.

Example A (fast rifle) - the stage ends with the shooter grabbing a rifle from a dump box to engage some 10yd paper and then transition immediately to 200yd steel plates that are large enough to entice some shooters to shoot offhand rather than take the time to run over to a rest or drop onto a prone carpet.

Example B (slow rifle) - the stage ends with the shooter grabbing a rifle and dropping prone to engage 400yd steel plates that are small enough that almost no one would attempt to shoot them offhand.

If a plate is 24"x24" square, it is 12moa side-to-side at 200yds, 8moa at 300yds, 6moa at 400yds, and 5moa at 500yds.

My basic questions for experienced MD's and shooters:

1 - Is there an moa threshold that generally distinguishes between fast and slow rifle for most shooters? "generally".

2 - In a match, does anyone ever engage a 6minnit 400yd steel gong offhand?
(My thinking: On the one hand, it's 24 inches huge! On the other hand, it's 400 yards.)

3 - What is a "good" average moa size for 100yd 3-gun steel?

4 - In the 3-gun world, assuming a typical assortment of shooters and a stage designer who wants to balance "challenge" with "fun", how small is too small for a steel sniper target at 400 yards?

Thanks!

 

[jtischauser]

I want wouldn't choose to shoot anything past 50 yards without support unless there was serious upside to doing so.

 

[jtischauser]

8-10" plates at 50 yards aren't easy. Translate that to 400 yards and you'll need to be shooting at a house to be fun.

 

[runawaygun762]

I don't remember for sure what the distance was, but the Lead Farm match one month had static steel head and torso targets that had be engaged offhand, and I think the distance was 90 yards or so. It was fun, but right on the edge of being annoying for most shooters with average offhand rifle skills. Much more than that and it probably would have been better to pop a couple rounds and move on with the FTN penalty.

 

[baker3gun]

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[toothandnail]

I've shot at 250 off hand,(mid-west match) everybody was dreading it, turned out most guys in our squad got them in 5 shots or less.

We've had a few at our matches out to about 200, not that bad for most.

Now a plate rack at 100 - 6" plates, off hand - THAT can be an ammo burner, still a lot of fun.

Who wants to shoot a match where everything is easy ? ? ? I don't see the point.

We have a formula for longer range steel, I'll let Josh chime in on what it is exactly -he's the evil genius numbers guy, I can't recall for sure.

 

[dennishoddy]

Our 300 yd steel is 12"X24" in a head and body configuration.
Nothing but a round burner offhand. Not too difficult from a rest.

 

[LoganbillJ]

I set up stages using a minimum of 4moa for rifle steel. Generally the only targets that come close or hit that are the mini poppers. I have put a plate rack with 6" plates at 150yds but that was shot from prone. For off hand I generally shoot for 6moa minimum. We had a 150yd off hand shot at the Missouri 3-Gun Championship but that was optional. I made the provision to kneel if you felt it was needed. That was a 12" flasher. I regularly force off hand shots at AC steel ranging from 80-100yds.

For your questions.

1. As I stated 4moa is the commonly used standard for rifle steel. No target size is really going to distinguish your better shooters from your worse shooters. What smaller targets will do is make the slow guys frustrated to the point where they may not come back. A larger target, to a point, will allow your slower/newer shooters to hit it and the faster shooters push the limit of speed and accuracy.

2. No one will attempt a 400yd offhand shot if there is an available rest.

3. 8" flasher at 100yds will please about everyone. I use the minis from 60-100. And our flashers from 150-350.

4. 4moa should be your limit especially at that distance. It is a good number to follow unless you only want 10-20% of your shooters hitting it. We run a 12" flasher at 300 and it gives a good number of our shooters fits. Any smaller and people would engage and leave it.

One other thing you should consider is increased penalties for steel past 200yds. It encourages the shooter to make an honest effort at it rather than taking a huge penalty. We run the standard 10 for FTN out to 200. 200+ is 20 for FTN, 25 for FTE.

 

[jtischauser]

I set up stages using a minimum of 4moa for rifle steel. Generally the only targets that come close or hit that are the mini poppers. I have put a plate rack with 6" plates at 150yds but that was shot from prone. For off hand I generally shoot for 6moa minimum. We had a 150yd off hand shot at the Missouri 3-Gun Championship but that was optional. I made the provision to kneel if you felt it was needed. That was a 12" flasher. I regularly force off hand shots at AC steel ranging from 80-100yds.

For your questions.

1. As I stated 4moa is the commonly used standard for rifle steel. No target size is really going to distinguish your better shooters from your worse shooters. What smaller targets will do is make the slow guys frustrated to the point where they may not come back. A larger target, to a point, will allow your slower/newer shooters to hit it and the faster shooters push the limit of speed and accuracy.

2. No one will attempt a 400yd offhand shot if there is an available rest.

3. 8" flasher at 100yds will please about everyone. I use the minis from 60-100. And our flashers from 150-350.

4. 4moa should be your limit especially at that distance. It is a good number to follow unless you only want 10-20% of your shooters hitting it. We run a 12" flasher at 300 and it gives a good number of our shooters fits. Any smaller and people would engage and leave it.

One other thing you should consider is increased penalties for steel past 200yds. It encourages the shooter to make an honest effort at it rather than taking a huge penalty. We run the standard 10 for FTN out to 200. 200+ is 20 for FTN, 25 for FTE.

^^^^This guy has it figured out^^^^

 

[jtischauser]

One other thing to consider when setting long range targets is the scoring method being used. If your using 3GN cumulative time and you setup really difficult long range stages those stages will accumulate a lot more total time in the match then anything else. So you need to spread the hard stuff out evenly on all stages or keep it easy/fast enough to not solely decide the outcome of the match. 100 point per stage scoring makes balanced time on stages negligible.

 

[mike cyrwus]

^ doesnt like to shoot long range, lol

 

[jtischauser]

^ doesnt like to shoot long range, lol

I love long range shooting because I'm good at it. I hate cumulative time scoring because it puts too much emphasis on the shooting that takes a lot of time such as anything hard like long range rifle, pistol or slugs.

 

[baker3gun]

Thanks again!

FWIW - If I force an offhand shot, it will be big and close.

Any other offhand shots will be shooter's choice: shoot right now offhand, or burn a little time to run "over there" to obtain a rest. I was looking for some parameters for a stage like that, and i got 'em!

Thanks to the MO guys.

Show ME!

 

[mike cyrwus]

I love long range shooting because I'm good at it. I hate cumulative time scoring because it puts too much emphasis on the shooting that takes a lot of time such as anything hard like long range rifle, pistol or slugs.

you mean the stuff that you have to place a lot of emphasis on when you practice? Why shouldn't you get more rewards for more difficult skills?

I know where youre coming from, but whats really the issue, there, imo, is that difficult stuff like Long range stuff is too subject to luck and randomness in matches. ie shooting in rain, in low light, etc..

 

[jtischauser]

you mean the stuff that you have to place a lot of emphasis on when you practice? Why shouldn't you get more rewards for more difficult skills?

I know where youre coming from, but whats really the issue, there, imo, is that difficult stuff like Long range stuff is too subject to luck and randomness in matches. ie shooting in rain, in low light, etc..

I think all aspects of the game should be weighted equally. Hosing is an important skill too.