Managing unknown contacts

michaelclm

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We could go on and on about the various aspects of this scenario (off-body carry, etc.) but I wanted to highlight the importance of learning to manage unknown contacts. Being able to recognize cues, avoiding task fixation and just having a situational awareness sufficient enough to put the hackles up early are all important. What you don't know could get you killed or cause you to have to kill someone else when you might not have needed to, otherwise.

http://fox.daytonsnewssource.com/shared/newsroom/raw_news/videos/vid_47.shtml

The victim of the initial attack was already presented with what should have rang loud and obnoxious warning bells when he was approached and persistently engaged by someone he didn't know and who was also calling him by a name that was not his own.

The first attacker continued to interview him in the parking lot, gave blatant pre-assault indicators and then closed to within "bad breath distance" all before the attack actually occured. None of those last three things had to happen. They might have been avoided by properly managing the contact with this individual once he approached outside the store. The same can be said for the exchange inside but I'm only trying to discuss what we can see on the video.

Please note that I am not criticizing this guy for defending himself. Hopefully d'bag #1 having to crap in a bag for a while will dissuade them both from ever doing anything else like this again. :rolleyes: I am merely pointing out that there is information available to all of us that will arm us with techniques that could potentially prevent our ever having to produce a firearm in the first place.

Let's talk software.
 

Burk Cornelius

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From the narration and the video, you are right, there were several indicators that there was "something not right".

Sometimes these indicators aren't always as easy to identify. But the bottom line is, if you feel something "uncomfortable" then you need to take preemptive actions (separation, etc)

Something I found rather odd is the fact that the person legally defending himself appears to leave the scene. That is not a good idea, ever.
 

michaelclm

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Exactly, Burk. If you notice, what does BG#2 do? He looks like he's getting on the phone. He who calls 911 first (in the absence of a video tape or witnesses) wins, sadly. Not all the time but it has happened.

Unfortunately, the gun culture is not as mainstream as it once was. You have good people defending themselves with deadly force and then, at the worst moment, doing something that in hindsight is pretty stupid or hard to convey to a jury(Jerome Ersland). When these things happen your peers are going to decide your fate. That's why it's important to seek this training out now. If all you practice is "draw, shoot, repeat" that is the only thing in memory when the real thing happens and you're gonna F yourself. You have to have a "blueprint" in place so that your actions are natural and correct before, during and after the incident.

Southnarc is the man when it comes to training for this.

Word. Southnarc is the subject matter expert.
 

Prdator

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MUC is one of the most important things you can learn for SD, as you'll get MANY more chances to use it than that master blaster you carry every day.....

FYI, I have Southnarc coming to the OKCGC 23-25 for his ECQC class so Get Signed up SOON!!!!!!! PM me for more info or Email at [email protected]




Also don't forget about CQT at USSA MIke Brown does a Awesome job at teaching MUC and how to win a fight in the 0-3'' range!! and its right here in OK and easy to get to.
 

Dux-R-Us

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MUC is one of the most important things you can learn for SD, as you'll get MANY more chances to use it than that master blaster you carry every day.....

FYI, I have Southnarc coming to the OKCGC 23-25 for his ECQC class so Get Signed up SOON!!!!!!! PM me for more info or Email at [email protected]




Also don't forget about CQT at USSA MIke Brown does a Awesome job at teaching MUC and how to win a fight in the 0-3'' range!! and its right here in OK and easy to get to.

Acronym overload. Please make posts readable.

Okay, what is MUC and ECQC? Who is Southnarc and when is he coming to OKCGC. 23-25 are dates, but what month. What will he teach?

The video shows why I got a CCW permit. Because you never know when you're going to run into some crazy person that changes the rest of your life.
 

TroyF

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MUC: Managing Unknown Contacts
ECQC: Extreme Close Quaters Combat

Southnarc is a Federal LEO. Deep Undercover guy. Spooky bad. That guy has dealt with more bad intentions that you can imagine. His approach to fighting is down and dirty, no BS, no frills, and effective. You can do a search for him on Youtube..........
 

Prdator

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Acronym overload. Please make posts readable.

Okay, what is MUC and ECQC? Who is Southnarc and when is he coming to OKCGC. 23-25 are dates, but what month. What will he teach?

The video shows why I got a CCW permit. Because you never know when you're going to run into some crazy person that changes the rest of your life.




Man that's what I get when I'm dong a drive by... Forget to put the month on there..LOL.

Muc= Managing Unknown Contacts. ECQC= Extreme Close Courters Concepts

March 23-25 2012, Southnarc will be at the OKC gun club doing his ECQC class, you can read all about Southnarcs classes here. http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp
Send me an Email to sign up! ( [email protected]) But keep in mind ECQC in NOT for beginners you need to have some prior Professional training (sda class does not count)
 

dennishoddy

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For the OP, the person missed all of the indicators they were going to be attacked. Allowing one to get too close is a big no-no.
By the time the brain asseses the threat, and the finger pulls the trigger, somebody 10' away already had the advantage on you.
If I"m wrong, I hope Troy Can correct this.
If I remember right there is a 15' rule about allowing people to close in on you.
 

TroyF

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Dennis, I believe the rule you are refering to is known as the "21' Rule" as proposed by Dennis Tueller. Simply stated, a man can traverse 21' before you can draw and accurately fire 1 shot at said traversing man.

That rule (distance) was arrived at under fairly sterile conditions. Test Officer was placed into a room with Test Badguy. Test Officer was told when bad guy advances, draw and simulate firing at Test Badguy. Distances were tested until it was concluded that 21' was this magic distance. But the Test Officer KNEW the Test Badguy was a badguy and KNEW that he was going to attack. So for years it has been trained that if a threat is within 21' of you, the threat is too close.

However.....
We are talking about a test with known parameters. Add in an unknowing atackee and an "unknown contact" (see where this is going?) and you can actually expand that distance to approximately 35'.

Disclaimer: I am in no way associated with Southnarc. If his class doesnt fill, TroyF still eats. If it does fill, that's great for anyone that attends. Spencer and I are friends. I respect him very much. But Spencer isnt making any money off that class. He does what he does (bringing in top notch instruction to the OKCGC) because he is a good dude who cares about his brothers.
Managing Unknown Contacts should rate EXTREMELY HIGH on anyone's training agenda. Simply put, it ain't steak. It's vegetables. And we all need to eat our vegetables.
Walk this earth thinking you can handle yourself (that's cool, if that's your choice). I'd rather walk KNOWING.
What I have found from years of Force on Force training (very similar to MUC) is that what you say you will do, and what you actually will do, are often two very different things. That class will be an EYE-OPENER.
 

dennishoddy

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Very good info Troy! I was mistaken in the distance.

This is one good reason to contact one of these guys, and get some training. ;)

One watches tv or a movie, and in reality, its a whole lot different.

I'm beating my brain to death, but there was an OHP that was gave shooting demo's to schools. If I remember right (I was in the 9th grade.) He had the class President hold a blank pistol, cocked, locked and ready, pointed at the OHP. He drew, shot,(blank) and took the gun away from our kid. I'm pretty sure 99.9% of people can't do that, but that was his gig, and he was dammed good at it.

I worked with his son later on at the Conoco Refinery in PC, but my dammed brain is still in lock down for the name :angry: :angry: :angry:
 

Scott Hearn

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That would be Lieutenant Dan Combs........RIP
Yes it sure was. I'll never forget watching him on TV as a kid. Probably Outdoor Oklahoma or Don Wallace. Paul Abel who is no slouch was a very good friend of his speaks very highly of his skills (says he was the best he ever saw). The guy was just spooky good with almost any firearm there was, I saw that myself. Did you ever see him draw the indian with a head dress with a Thompson SMG? True fact.....
 

TroyF

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I've got some old grainy black and white footage of him doing some demos at an OHP academy. That cat could draw and fire faster than you can blink. If I can find it, I'll link it up somehow.

"and if you ain't quick enough, there's gonna be some slow walking and sad singing at another cops funeral"...... Very much to the point.
 

FTK87

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Something I found rather odd is the fact that the person legally defending himself appears to leave the scene. That is not a good idea, ever.

I didn't watch that video, but seen a different one (withouth any narration). The guy only left the scene because he thought BG#2 was going to get a weapon, he drove a block down the road and then met the cops back at the scene, pretty smart when you have mutliple attackers and have only shot one of them IMO.
 

michaelclm

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Man stabbed after not giving money to a panhandler. Few details in this one but the end result was a bad one. Could it have been prevented? Who knows with the info given but remember the definition of an unknown contact: If I don't know you then you're suspect, especially if you've approached me at random. If someone is willing to get close enough to you as a stranger to ask the time or for money, they could potentially be comfortable getting close enough to do you harm.

With what Troy stated about distance to draw and fire one round on target, you might want to reconsider putting all of your training eggs in your handgun basket. This is why training institutions place so much emphasis on "getting of the 'X'". By moving you can maintain distance or slow down the closing of the gap between you, hopefully being able to move to cover. If your BG starts off close enough to ask the time or for money I hope you've spent time on close work with hands, blades, keeping your gun, etc.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Man-Asks-Pedestrian-for-1-Then-Stabs-Him-128237573.html
 

Prdator

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