John Canuck
Well-Known Fanatic
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 832
Thats odd. Why would they think your gun is stolen? No one has ever asked me if the tools in the back of my truck are stolen.
LEO Encounter in Conway
- Thread starter beerman
- Start date
94formulabird
Well-Known Fanatic
Perhaps it's bc I don't have my cwp...not sure...but I've always been told to inform an officer when a gun is present..they'd rather all the cards be I the table...and once they find out I'm an outstanding, polite, and safe individual, they tend to let me off
So what does informing the cop of your firearm have to do with allowing him to run a serial check on said firearm? I seriously do not understand. Do you also allow them to make sure your phone, vehicle, house, groceries, tv, kids, etc., are not stolen?
And if you've been pulled over for speeding several times, just exactly how high do you think their opinion is of you? These folks routinely deal with and search for criminals, and this flavors their perception of the general public. Please remember: Officer Friendly is looking to do his job. Officer Friendly's job is to find a criminal. Officer Friendly is looking at YOU.
Why else do you think he wants to run your guns? If he didn't suspect they were stolen, he wouldn't worry about it. If he believed you were so safe, outstanding and polite, he wouldn't suspect you of criminal activity. If he thought of you that way, he'd say "Thanks for letting me know. Don't touch yours and I won't touch mine. Have a nice day."
And if you've been pulled over for speeding several times, just exactly how high do you think their opinion is of you? These folks routinely deal with and search for criminals, and this flavors their perception of the general public. Please remember: Officer Friendly is looking to do his job. Officer Friendly's job is to find a criminal. Officer Friendly is looking at YOU.
Why else do you think he wants to run your guns? If he didn't suspect they were stolen, he wouldn't worry about it. If he believed you were so safe, outstanding and polite, he wouldn't suspect you of criminal activity. If he thought of you that way, he'd say "Thanks for letting me know. Don't touch yours and I won't touch mine. Have a nice day."
John Canuck
Well-Known Fanatic
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 832
I sure hope it has nothing to do with having (or not) your CWP. When I lived in VA, I regularly open carried, sometimes with no ID at all (aka sterile). I was never asked to disarm, and would never offer to do so. If I had my way here, no permission slip would be required to carry and it would suck to think the police considered every gun owner a criminal :?
All in all, I'm shocked you are more concerned about getting a speeding ticket when you were speeding, than you are at being considered a thief until you proved you weren't.
When I last got a speeding ticket in VA, I didn't say a single word during the entire event. Not one. I think it went much more smoothly than your experience.
All in all, I'm shocked you are more concerned about getting a speeding ticket when you were speeding, than you are at being considered a thief until you proved you weren't.
When I last got a speeding ticket in VA, I didn't say a single word during the entire event. Not one. I think it went much more smoothly than your experience.
94formulabird
Well-Known Fanatic
Well maybe y'all are more concerned with your right at I am..if I know my stuff isn't stolen, I have no problem entertaining a cop who want to run number or search my vehicle...in the end, nothing happens...I leave with my property...and have a story to tell...
John Canuck
Well-Known Fanatic
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 832
Some would suggest worrying about your rights is over rated, until you need them.
If you are going to be allowing the police to crawl through your car for no reason, I suggest you stay out of DC.
If you are going to be allowing the police to crawl through your car for no reason, I suggest you stay out of DC.
beerman
Well-Known Fanatic
As much as I'd love to go and fight it, I think I will be paying the fine and moving on. The court date is the same day I need to be in Charlotte to pick up my parents at the airport. I also don't want anymore attention drawn to the fact I'm a Michigan resident with a SC registered car, getting paid from a company in Wisconsin, while working in SC. I know what I'm doing is legal, but I don't want any extra attention given to me.
I'm not sure how I would've reacted had he wanted to take my gun and run the numbers, but I wouldn't have been happy about it. I certainly wouldn't let a cop search my car for no reason. Not because I have anything to hide, but more so because he wouldn't have any probable cause.
I'm not sure how I would've reacted had he wanted to take my gun and run the numbers, but I wouldn't have been happy about it. I certainly wouldn't let a cop search my car for no reason. Not because I have anything to hide, but more so because he wouldn't have any probable cause.
94formulabird
Well-Known Fanatic
I guess it's the inner troll in me that wants to go " haha I told you so"...probable cause or not I have nothing to hide and all the time in the world...
94formulabird said:
Why does exercising a god given right that millions have shed their blood to defend automatically equivocate as 'having something to hide'? You ARE aware that the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments were designed to PROTECT the innocent, not define the guilty, aren't you? If you don't give a damn about your rights, why should you expect anyone else to? Congrats when someone stomps all over them, and you. After all, you've got nothing to hide and all the time in the world...
Oh, and are you SURE you having nothing to hide? Are you even aware of how many laws are on the books? I think it was some 88,000 were passed this year ALONE. Can you really be sure you've never broken any of them?
Before you spout off such inane comments, you might be interested in some obscure, irrelevant laws here in our state. You may or may not have ever done these, but I'll bet you didn't know they are considered crimes. Think about that the next time you opt to let an agent of the state violate those rights you don't care about.
http://www.dumblaws.com/law/862
http://www.dumblaws.com/law/863
http://www.dumblaws.com/law/866
http://www.dumblaws.com/law/868
http://www.dumblaws.com/law/880
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
C_Carson said:
Last summer, I was stopped by a Cayce Police Officer on a Sunday morning around 9:30. Upon declaring myself a CWP holder carrying a weapon, I was asked to step out of my vehicle, hands on the hood. The officer took my weapon, unloaded it (pointing it into my car) and took it back to her patrol car to call in the serial number. At what point in there did I "have a choice"? I would have been arrested for resisting or failing to obey a police officer had I not. I'm aware that what she did was not correct, but a road-side discussion would have landed me in hand cuffs.
During traffic stops in some states, officers may seize your weapon for "officer safety" but without RAS/PC, they cannot just run your serials without your permission. That is a violation of your 4th amendment rights. You could say "Officer, I will not resist, but I do not consent to a search or seizure of my possessions." This informs them that you did not waive your rights, and gives you a standing for when you file a complaint against the officer for violating your rights.
If we do not stand up for our rights, no one else will. Familiarize yourself with Martin Niem?ller and this poem he wrote during the Nazis reign of terror:
Know your rights, learn the history behind them, understand how they are meant to protect you, and THEN decide if you want to exercise/protect them or just let people walk all over them. A right un-exercised is a right lost. Free men have rights, indentured men do not.
If we do not stand up for our rights, no one else will. Familiarize yourself with Martin Niem?ller and this poem he wrote during the Nazis reign of terror:
Know your rights, learn the history behind them, understand how they are meant to protect you, and THEN decide if you want to exercise/protect them or just let people walk all over them. A right un-exercised is a right lost. Free men have rights, indentured men do not.
Low Country Five-0
Active Fanatic
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2011
- Messages
- 29
11B3XCIB said:
That's a failure by the departments training division. In that situation I would make a call and speak to that officers supervisor. If you don't get a satisfactory response there then you call IA. Being a CWP holder does not equal probable cause that you have a stolen weapon. To me a CWP has a greater than average chance of having a legal firearm. Did she really think you were going to tell her you have a CWP and a gun if you are carrying a stolen gun? We never know who we are stopping and I understand going on "fishing expeditions" by asking to search vehicles and such but unlawfully detaining you based only on the fact that you obeyed the law and declared that you are a CWP and have a firearm is ridiculous. We all want to go home at the end of our shift but I'm worried about the guy that doesn't tell me he has a gun.
When a police officer asks for permission to search you can say no. I would if I was stopped. I have no idea who stopped you. She might be a good officer who was never properly trained to handle that situation. I've seen my fair share of rookies try to do something with the best intentions that actually violate the constitution. The good ones stop when I tell them too. The bad ones get yelled at and embarrassed in front of the public and then stop. :twisted:
John Canuck
Well-Known Fanatic
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 832
11B3XCIB said:
Why did you not just hand over your CWP as required and end it there. There is nothing requiring you to advise you are in possession of a gun. Your experience is just another piece of evidence proving that any requirement to identify yourself as a gun carrier (in the states that have that requirement) is bad.
Did you follow up with the department? Did you FOIA any/all communications regarding the event?
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
John Canuck said:
You got the abridged version here...I made a big thread about this a while back. I gave her my SCDL, registration, and insurance, along with my CWP, like is required by law (duty to inform). She asked if I was carrying a weapon, and I told her I was. In my previous post, I summed it all up...I guess I wasn't clear enough. The rest of the story is pretty much how the rest of it went, although it took about 20 minutes rather than 30 seconds.
And no, I didn't pursue it.
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
C_Carson said:
I had no idea that my weapon was taken other than for officer safety and that she intended to run the serial numbers until she was back at her car calling it in. I can only imagine leaving the front of my car where she put me and loudly voicing "I do not consent to this!" so she could hear me would have gone over really well to her and looked great on the camera.
I'd never been stopped by a cop in the 6+ years of being a CWP holder at the time. I did exactly what I was taught in the class, and when the officer didn't react in real life the way it was said they would in the class, I just had to observe what was going on and attempt to act appropriately. I was surprised I actually had to exit my vehicle and that I was being treated like I possibly committed a crime. I keep a clean hair cut, I have DoD stickers on my car as well as a couple military insignia stickers, as I am active Army. I was pulled over for a B.S. reason. I was the only car on the road and she was looking for something to do, which was obvious because I received no ticket (I did nothing wrong.)
Low Country Five-O, I appreciate your response.
John Canuck, your perception was my fault because I wasn't completely clear about the events.
Carson, I appreciate you trying to make sure we don't lose our rights because some don't understand them, but the situation I was in changed in such a way I couldn't have protested it without becoming non-compliant with her instructions. I'm sure this cop was only looking for a reason, and leaving the car where she instructed me to stay to inform the her I did not consent to a search would have earned me a "Failure to Obey" arrest.
John Canuck
Well-Known Fanatic
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 832
In some cases, your objections need to take place after the incident, not during. When one doesn't do anything about what happens to them, it appears they don't mind too much.
My previous point was, if you don't advise there is a gun on your belt, you are much better off. YMMV.
My previous point was, if you don't advise there is a gun on your belt, you are much better off. YMMV.
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
John Canuck said:
The retired Highway Patrolman that instructed my CWP class suggested that we announce our weapons as a "courtesy" to the officer. In my case, the officer asked if I was carrying before I could volunteer it and all the courtesies I extended got me -zero- in return.
Trust me, my experience from that one incident will totally change the way I handle being stopped in the future.
John Canuck
Well-Known Fanatic
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 832
I could never figure out that courtesy thing. I don't tell a teller at the bank, or the clerk at Lowes as a courtesy. I also don't tell any of them I have a hammer in the tool box in the back, or a chainsaw, or about the knife I carry, or about the first aid kit ?????
11B3XCIB said:
I never advocated leaving your car, or refusing to exit it. Comply with the officer's demands, but VERBALLY object. You still do have the power and freedom to do that much. If it had been carried over to the camera, it would have only made YOUR case stronger when you filed a report for a blatant violation of your rights. The point is to assert your rights while cooperating to the extent required by law.
I certainly hope you took this up with her superiors, though I don't expect they would do anything about it. But when enough people complain about fishing expeditions, unlawful stops and violation of rights, the bad cops tend to get reined in a bit.
I fail to see how you couldn't verbally protest/object while remaining compliant. Doing one does not automatically fail to equal the other. I never suggested you leave your vehicle; merely state when she removed your weapon that you "do not consent to any searches or seizures." Then she knows you are not waiving your rights, and that she is violating them. There is no fuzzy ground for them to claim when you are concise, clear and verbally communicative.
Can you elaborate how a verbal objection unequivocally would have earned you an automatic arrest for a specific charge?
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
By the time it became apparent she had taken my firearm for reasons OTHER than officer safety, she was two car lengths away. I would have been at the front of my car, shouting at her. "Hey Officer....Bring my gun back! I do not consent!". Come on. That's not very reasonable to expect of someone.
The extent of the training and experience I had with law enforcement encounters in regards to my concealed weapon came from my CWP class, and having my serial number run to check it's legality was not covered. I was not in "rights violation" mode when I got stopped. I had no idea she'd attempt to run the serial, so I wasn't instinctively waiting to tell her not to.
The extent of the training and experience I had with law enforcement encounters in regards to my concealed weapon came from my CWP class, and having my serial number run to check it's legality was not covered. I was not in "rights violation" mode when I got stopped. I had no idea she'd attempt to run the serial, so I wasn't instinctively waiting to tell her not to.
