J-Frame .38 Special

[Burk Cornelius]

I think I know how this will go, knowing that most of the members are match shooters they like the biggest gun with the most rounds they can cram in it.

For those of you who carry a concealed weapon as a civilian, lets have a discussion on whether you feel that a J-Frame in .38 special is sufficient as a primary weapon? Many carry one as a back up but sometimes some of us choose to carry ONLY the J-Frame.

Are we shorting ourselves (pun intended)?

BC

 

[TroyF]

I would say that yes, a J-frame is sufficient. Perhaps not optimal. The 38Spl is a pretty good round, ask all the dead bad guys who have been shot by cops in years gone by. The gun itself is accurate, if one understands how to use those sights.
So we have a accurate reliable platform, shooting a pretty good round......
Only drawback is the capacity. Would I feel underarmed with a 5 shot? Yep. Would I feel underarmed with a 17 shot Glock 17? Yep. Simple fact: The only TWO times you can have too much ammo...when you are drowning or when you are on fire.

So I would leave chalk this up to personal preference. I'd rather someone carry a 5-shot J-frame, than leave their (insert name of larger capacity firearm here) at home.

 

[dennishoddy]

Let me start by saying I own two .38's. One is a Davis derringer that was taken as part of a trade, and the other is a S&W Mod 10.

I have a very sofisticated bullet penetration test facility at my house. What it consists of is 4, 55 gallon steel drums that I use for burn barrels at the house.
Ok, its a redneck test range, but its all I've got and I'm a redneck

I line the barrels up, and see how far the bullets penetrate. Its just a comparison test, but it has opened up my eyes.
shooting 125 grain Winchester lead from the Mod 10, 6" barrel, it will go through one side of the first drum,and put a large dent in the back side, almost penetrating. The 2 1/2" Davis Derringer merely puts a dent in the front side of the drum, with no penetration.
I observed the same rusults in another Davis Derringer in .22lr. It will dent the front side of the drum, where the 6 1/2" Ruger will penetrate both sides of the drum, and dent the one behind it.

.44 mag will go through all 4 drums, and continue on for another comparison.

With the short barrel of the J frame, I'd be concerned with penetration. That being said, I danged sure don't want to be shot with one. Like Troy said, the morgue is full of people that secumbed to a .38 and smaller.

Me? I carry a .380 Keltec, all the time, supplementing with a Kahr CW-40 if enough cover clothes are available.(still can't find a way to conceal when wearing my speedo, How do you guys do it?) :blink:
Modern .380 ammo is optimized for very short barrels. I'd like to see some special SD ammo built for the Jframes to get the velocity up.

 

[Burk Cornelius]

There is. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel

http://www.speer-amm...ullet_tests.htm

 

[dennishoddy]

There is. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel

Well then, I stand corrected.

 

[Burk Cornelius]

They might even make it for your .380

Well then, I stand corrected.

 

[TroyF]

I would say that yes, a J-frame is sufficient. Perhaps not optimal. The 38Spl is a pretty good round, ask all the dead bad guys who have been shot by cops in years gone by. The gun itself is accurate, if one understands how to use those sights.
So we have a accurate reliable platform, shooting a pretty good round......
Only drawback is the capacity. Would I feel underarmed with a 5 shot? Yep. Would I feel underarmed with a 17 shot Glock 17? Yep. Simple fact: The only TWO times you can have too much ammo...when you are drowning or when you are on fire.

So I would leave chalk this up to personal preference. I'd rather someone carry a 5-shot J-frame, than leave their (insert name of larger capacity firearm here) at home.

When I wrote this, I was refering to when the metal hits the meat. My cousin was in the Marines. He was a SAW gunner. He told me he hated lugging that gun around, until they were in a firefight. My point is, when in a fight for your life, you will never have enough gun, ammo, skill, luck, etc.

Carry the biggest gun you can conceal, are comfortable with, and can shoot well. I carry a 5-shot J-frame when I can't carry my full-size 1911 or G35. I feel safe with all.

 

[Mitch Rapp]

Are you "under armed" I dunno, I guess it really depends on what your opposition is carrying, or better yet, who they are, and what they are carrying. That is the great unknown for all CCL holders (and police) who take what they do seriously.

How do LEOs decide to go to a call with just their sidearm, or decide that maybe this is the one they should bring the 12gauge or patrol carbine out of the car for?

Anything is better than nothing. Your J frame is probably adequate, as long as you are more than adequate with it.

 

[TroyF]

Are you "under armed" I dunno, I guess it really depends on what your opposition is carrying, or better yet, who they are, and what they are carrying. That is the great unknown for all CCL holders (and police) who take what they do seriously.

How do LEOs decide to go to a call with just their sidearm, or decide that maybe this is the one they should bring the 12gauge or patrol carbine out of the car for?

Anything is better than nothing. Your J frame is probably adequate, as long as you are more than adequate with it.

Mitch, that last line sums it up. That may be the best quote I've heard. Ever.

And to answer you question about LEOs....it depends on the circumstances of the call, the seriousness of the call, etc. Generally if the call involves a weapon, the long guns come out. For me, I decide depending on wheter the hair on the back of my neck is standing up or not. If the call is enough to cause me to get nervous, AR15 it is.

 

[Burk Cornelius]

.... and can shoot well.

.... as long as you are more than adequate with it.

There seems to be a pattern developing here. No matter what gun you carry, it likely isn't going to be a sufficient tool if you can't use it effectively.

On a side note, that is one reason I really like what David E is doing at Heartland. Carry guns are highly encouraged. Several of us regularly shoot our J-Frames for this very reason. Reloading a snubby while "on the go" is challenging enough, I can only imagine imagine how it would be if someone is shooting back at you.

 

[dennishoddy]

They might even make it for your .380

I have used the Speer Gold dot, in the past, and never had a problem with it. I'm currently using the Hornady .380 Auto Critical Defense load. In ballistics test with 4 layers of denim, it got 10 1/2" of penetration in ballistic gel. There is a video on Utube of the tests. I'll see if I can find it when I get home tonight.
This is the first I've heard of the Speer Gold dot for short barrels. I'll have to check it out.
With the huge interest in short barreled guns for concealed carry the ammo manufacturers are really ramping up bullet designs and developing new powders. Next month it may be something better and new from somebody else.

 

[Burk Cornelius]

When I carried an LCP for a BUG, it used the Hornady CD and it performed very well in that small gun. I haven't tried the new chambering for .38 yet

 

[Rick417]

Simple fact: The only TWO times you can have too much ammo...when you are drowning or when you are on fire.

I like it.

 

[TroyF]

Rick, I'm sure I stole that from somewhere.

 

[Rick417]

Rick, I'm sure I stole that from somewhere.

And I just stole it from you. Thanks.

 

[jandreski]

I heard of a gentleman that holds a class around the Tulsa area. It is a 38 sp snub nose self defense class. It cost around 75.00 and you shoot 2-300 rounds. He covers hitting targets at various ranges, reloads, tactics. Anyone heard of him i cant remember his name. I carry a 38 as a backup, but occasionally as deep concealment. Pm or post the class info or throw it up on the forum, He had excellent reviews for the training. thanks

 

[Scott Hearn]

There is. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel

http://www.speer-amm...ullet_tests.htm

snipped...
This is the first I've heard of the Speer Gold dot for short barrels. I'll have to check it out.
With the huge interest in short barreled guns for concealed carry the ammo manufacturers are really ramping up bullet designs and developing new powders. Next month it may be something better and new from somebody else.

Hey Dennis, I carry the Gold Dot +P Short barrel load in my 442 exclusively. I chrono'd them out of that same 442 once and my CED Millennium chrono said they were spot on what the Speer site claims the velocity is. I'm talking less than 10 FPS difference average. I was pretty surprised at that and they have a big honking cavity in the front and they are a bonded bullet so I'm pretty comfortable in thinking that they will perform well.

I'll also state that airweight snubbies are pretty difficult to hit with. My practice load is a 125 grain Berry's HP with 4.7 grains of N320 pushing it. And I would not want to shoot 2 or 300 rounds of that in a class at all, as they really aren't fun guns to shoot for very long. But to be proficient with a snubbie you have to shoot them a lot. After 100 rounds my hand is pretty beat up and I'm pretty much done for the day at that point. Now a Colt detective special is a whole different matter...

 

[jtischauser]

I say yes if you are damn good with that short barrel. The capacity thing worries me most as well. I have snubby revos stashed everywhere because they Taurus and Rossi models are so cheap.

 

[Pstmstr]

Claude Werner teaches an excellent snubby class that I took last year. I feel confident that mine will get me out of about any jam (no pun intended) that I might find myself in.

 

[ldp4570]

Seems alot of folks are worried about the "More than one" issue. Anytime there is more than one subject there is a leader, he's the first to go if he's brave enough to stay after you present your gun. Most folks don't feel like getting swiss cheese syndrome, and more fights/altercations are stopped by the presence of a gun, more than using one. I for one carry a J-frame most of the time, and with two speedloaders and a strip feel fine about my option. I also practice regularly with my 640ND from 7yds out to 25yds. Lots of folks think you can't hit anything past 10yds with these snubnosed guns. They are just as accurate as their bigger famliy members, and can surprise you if you take the time to practice with them. You not only need to be shooting them, but dryfire practice too, as you want the strength in the hand and muscle memory to make that little blaster perform. I know there's all kinds of exotic ammo now on the market being pushed for these guns and other little ones. To me the finest round you can get for the J-frame is the "Old" 158GR-SWCHP+P from Remington, Federal, or Winchester. They have a track record yet to be beaten by anything out there right now. Another very good one in this loading comes from Buffalo Bore, they use extreamly soft lead with a gascheck, and it will penetrate and expand. I carry the J-frame for protection, not because I know I'll get into a gun fight. If I knew that, I'd stay home, or if I had no other choice I'd be packing a rifle and high cap pistol, plus friends!!!!!!!!!