Handgun light violates the 4 rules?

[terdog]

Yesterday my wife and I took our Idaho Enhanced CCW class.
I started a discussion on using a weapon mounted on whether that violates any of the 4 rules.

Thoughts?

 

[dennishoddy]

What's best? .270 or 30-06?
Weapon mounted lights will bring out similar discussions. There are those that look at WML's as toys, others as a necessary tool.
Personally, there are WML on two of my firearms.
One is the Nordic NC-22 AR in .22lr used for dispatching armadillos after dark and the other is in the truck gun. 9mm S&W Series 1 for use in unfamiliar locations if finding myself in one.
A brief flash to see how the room/location is laid out, never to be used again.
Tritium night sights rule the night. We used to have night shooting competitions at an indoor range with a single 40 watt light bulb in the background to simulate moon glow or street lights.
Those using standard sights didn't fare well. The first shot muzzle flash eliminated their night vision with target acquisition after almost impossible. Spray and pray.
Those with Trintium sights continued to shoot effectively.
Thats my take on WML's.
Others may have differing opinions that are welcome.

 

[terdog]

The instructors position was similar.
In a stressful situation, will we be able to resist anything else?

Wouldn't it be better to use a handheld light?

 

[Mike A1]

Wouldn't it be better to use a handheld light?

Yes.

 

[kevinl]

What's best? .270 or 30-06?
Weapon mounted lights will bring out similar discussions. There are those that look at WML's as toys, others as a necessary tool.
Personally, there are WML on two of my firearms.
One is the Nordic NC-22 AR in .22lr used for dispatching armadillos after dark and the other is in the truck gun. 9mm S&W Series 1 for use in unfamiliar locations if finding myself in one.
A brief flash to see how the room/location is laid out, never to be used again.
Tritium night sights rule the night. We used to have night shooting competitions at an indoor range with a single 40 watt light bulb in the background to simulate moon glow or street lights.
Those using standard sights didn't fare well. The first shot muzzle flash eliminated their night vision with target acquisition after almost impossible. Spray and pray.
Those with Trintium sights continued to shoot effectively.
Thats my take on WML's.
Others may have differing opinions that are welcome.

Im ises a WML with Laser sight for my home defense weapon. I will not miss and I can identify my target before firing!

 

[terdog]

Im ises a WML with Laser sight for my home defense weapon. I will not miss and I can identify my target before firing!

But, your missing the point.
Your not supposed to point a firearm at anything WITHOUT knowing your target. Right?

If you use your WML, aren't you violating that rule?
Or, are you justifying breaking that rule?

 

[HooDoo Man]

Yes. You're in my house there I set the rules.

 

[terdog]

What other of the 4 do you throw away?

 

[dennishoddy]

Im ises a WML with Laser sight for my home defense weapon. I will not miss and I can identify my target before firing!

Welcome to 1911 Fanatics!

 

[ThemanJC]

I have a light on two handguns I use for home defense and occasional travel. Like others have said, I doubt I would use it inside my house. On the road might be a different story. I figure it is there if needed. It is most definitely situational.

 

[terdog]

I have a light on two handguns I use for home defense and occasional travel. Like others have said, I doubt I would use it inside my house. On the road might be a different story. I figure it is there if needed. It is most definitely situational.

To be clear, I am not necessarily against a wml. This is more of a philosophical mental question than anything else.
Technically a WML does violate some of the four rules would you not agree?
What's wrong with an independent handheld light source like a flashlight? You can use a flashlight in one hand while holding your gun in the other.

 

[ThemanJC]

I will likely get dogged out for this one, but I am feeling rather dim (pun intended). Which of the four rules would it violate? It can help identify the possible target. It can help keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. It can certainly help identify what is beyond the target. You know the gun is loaded. Keep your finger off the trigger until you need to fire. Help me understand. Thanks!

 

[terdog]

Firstly #4 then #2

 

[terdog]

Are you not pointing the gun with a light because you do not know what the target is or what you're pointing at? Aren't you searching for something? Something that is unknown.
The worst case scenario is pointing at somebody that you do not want to destroy. And you won't know that using a wml. If you were to use a standalone flashlight then you can keep the muzzle pointed away in a safe direction that is not covering a Target whether intended or not.

 

[ThemanJC]

I kind of see your point a little. We can agree to disagree I suppose.

 

[terdog]

Sounds good.
I'm not 100% convinced either.

Just throwing it out there for food for thought.

 

[skibum]

Some more food for thought on this (not at all trying to take sides or start an argument). Not sure there is right answer and/or a time when the rules can/should be broken.

• If your searching for the bad guy, using your WML, in your home, a dark alley, a cave, wherever, you are technically violating rule #2. I don't think there is any questioning that on it's face. But obviously in a life or death situation it's not all black and white. Are there other options? Sure. Are there better, safer options? Maybe, maybe not.
• If you choose to use a hand held flashlight and have your firearm in the other, are you going to make as accurate a shot than if you were using two hands on the firearm and be able to get back on target as quickly and accurately for a potential follow up shot? Rule #2 is not being violated in this instance but might be compromising your accuracy and effectiveness. I definitley shoot better with two hands. Sure there are ways to hold the hand held flashlight and use the flashlight hand to help support the firearm but is it as effective as gripping with both hands? I am sure there are some folks out there that are very accurate, steady and competent with one handed shooting. I would bet the vast majority of us are much more accurate and competent using both hands.
• When using a WML will the stress of the situation cause you fire at the first moving thing you see/hear - your dog, your kid in bed? I believe this is unlikely as you know where your kids sleep and where the dog(s) sleep. The bad guy is unlikley to be in bed with your kid or petting your dog. If you have a dog, it's probably going to find the bad guy for you (and get a head start putting some holes in him) and then you will know where to place your light and your shot.
• When using a hand held flashlight, will the stress of the situation cause you to fire at the floor or wherever your firearm is pointed when you hear/see something?
• What would be your tendency to point the firearm in the same direction as the handheld flashlight when in a stressful situation that most of us have never been in?
• If your taking a walk around your neighborhood at night, there is generally some light. I live in the suburbs, no street lights but people have their porch/entryway lights on, motion lights in their driveways, post lights on the lawn. So, if a bad guy was to approach, I wouldn't need the flashlight/WML at all, it would be a quick draw and fire directly at the threat. Not like someone is going to try to pick me off with sniper rifle from a neighbors back yard or roof top. If they do I am screwed anyway, I will never see it coming.
• If you live in a rural area with no light or out in the back country where big critters want to eat or stomp your a**, then you are potentially back to violating rule #2 and rule #4. We are talking about personal defense with a handgun, so theoretically rule #4 should not be much of an issue unless there are others nearby, out buildings, livestock and the like. But if it's my life or someones farm animal, I will make restitution for the animal.

I could go on and on with various scenarios. I think you have to do what's comfortable and practical for you. The rules may get violated in a stressful life or death situation. I would rather violate the rule than be dead. People who have actually been through encounter such as this may be able to shed some insight into what acutally happens in the moment. Again, not trying to say anyone here is right or wrong, just throwing out ideas for thought and discussion.

 

[ThemanJC]

Some more food for thought on this (not at all trying to take sides or start an argument). Not sure there is right answer and/or a time when the rules can/should be broken.

• If your searching for the bad guy, using your WML, in your home, a dark alley, a cave, wherever, you are technically violating rule #2. I don't think there is any questioning that on it's face. But obviously in a life or death situation it's not all black and white. Are there other options? Sure. Are there better, safer options? Maybe, maybe not.
• If you choose to use a hand held flashlight and have your firearm in the other, are you going to make as accurate a shot than if you were using two hands on the firearm and be able to get back on target as quickly and accurately for a potential follow up shot? Rule #2 is not being violated in this instance but might be compromising your accuracy and effectiveness. I definitley shoot better with two hands. Sure there are ways to hold the hand held flashlight and use the flashlight hand to help support the firearm but is it as effective as gripping with both hands? I am sure there are some folks out there that are very accurate, steady and competent with one handed shooting. I would bet the vast majority of us are much more accurate and competent using both hands.
• When using a WML will the stress of the situation cause you fire at the first moving thing you see/hear - your dog, your kid in bed? I believe this is unlikely as you know where your kids sleep and where the dog(s) sleep. The bad guy is unlikley to be in bed with your kid or petting your dog. If you have a dog, it's probably going to find the bad guy for you (and get a head start putting some holes in him) and then you will know where to place your light and your shot.
• When using a hand held flashlight, will the stress of the situation cause you to fire at the floor or wherever your firearm is pointed when you hear/see something?
• What would be your tendency to point the firearm in the same direction as the handheld flashlight when in a stressful situation that most of us have never been in?
• If your taking a walk around your neighborhood at night, there is generally some light. I live in the suburbs, no street lights but people have their porch/entryway lights on, motion lights in their driveways, post lights on the lawn. So, if a bad guy was to approach, I wouldn't need the flashlight/WML at all, it would be a quick draw and fire directly at the threat. Not like someone is going to try to pick me off with sniper rifle from a neighbors back yard or roof top. If they do I am screwed anyway, I will never see it coming.
• If you live in a rural area with no light or out in the back country where big critters want to eat or stomp your a**, then you are potentially back to violating rule #2 and rule #4. We are talking about personal defense with a handgun, so theoretically rule #4 should not be much of an issue unless there are others nearby, out buildings, livestock and the like. But if it's my life or someones farm animal, I will make restitution for the animal.

I could go on and on with various scenarios. I think you have to do what's comfortable and practical for you. The rules may get violated in a stressful life or death situation. I would rather violate the rule than be dead. People who have actually been through encounter such as this may be able to shed some insight into what acutally happens in the moment. Again, not trying to say anyone here is right or wrong, just throwing out ideas for thought and discussion.

All good thoughts. This post has made me really think. I'm not very good shooting one-handed in a peaceful environment at the range. Hate to admit it but it is true. And I have never practiced holding a flashlight in the other. I saw a guy doing it at the range once.

I hope none of us ever have to make the decision, but it needs to be made before it happens. I don't see myself putting in the necessary practice to hold a flashlight in one hand and a gun in the other. Not to mention I would have two things to grab in the heat of the moment. Conventional wisdom suggests we wouldn't have time to grab ear muffs AND your gun, so what makes me think I could find and grab the light/gun combo? Plus, it seems I would be far easier to disarm holding the gun in only one hand.

I will likely leave mine on my HD weapon if needed. Again, situations define when needed. In the end, the consequences will be mine. And hope the day never comes.

 

[Mike Galway]

Yes. You're in my house there I set the rules.

My sentiments exactly.