Grip: holding it wrong or size matters

[yury]

I would like to know the exact science of how to select a right pistol grip size for a given hand(s). How can the one tell if they selected proper gun or grip does not need adjustment? Or they just holding the pistol wrong.

For example, I followed common advice to go with common a striker-fired gun for competitions, which by surprise is coming with double-stack magazines It felt good in the hand during single shot/slow firing when I was making the decision. But during life drills or USPSA matches, I noticed that my grip coming apart quickly and this is not improving with time. So now I’m in doubt with my decision going with a double-stack: are my hands too small/weak to hold it? Moving to the Production division helped since it requires magazine change, so I can fix weak hand hold.

Before I'll start pushing myself to train even more on weak hand strength, how can I "scientifically" tell if I need to change the gun and what in particular I'm looking for in my grip change before I start renting all available pistols on a shelf? Sorry, I don't believe in "love at first sight" in this particular case, or whatever a sales person might say.


P.S. All information on the subject is incomplete, and I'm not finding anything conflicting with what celebrities are saying (e.g. Bob Vogel, Travis Tomasie, Jerry Miculek, etc.) with what I’m doing.

 

[Wall]

Yury, you should take a class like tdsa where live instructors can give you actual feedback & correction on your base skills. TDSA's ACP1 class is an absolutely fantastic class for this.

 

[Matt1911]

Yes. TDSA AP1 will get you adjusted to where you need to be with your grip.

 

[Wall]

You can't learn kung fu from watching saturday afternoon Bruce Lee & Jackie Chan movies, you're going to have to take some lessons.

 

[yury]

Yury, you should take a class like tdsa where live instructors can give you actual feedback & correction on your base skills. TDSA's ACP1 class is an absolutely fantastic class for this.

I hear you. TDSA ACP1 sounds like fun. But it's not really answering initial my question. (Though, is there something closer to OKC?)

You can't learn kung fu from watching saturday afternoon Bruce Lee & Jackie Chan movies, you're going to have to take some lessons.

I wonder now if dry firing drills described in some book carry the same amount of value as watching a movie -- shall these be performed under direct supervision of an instructor first?

 

[Jeff T.]

Rather than taking a class with many other people and a single instructor. Another option, is to talk to or ask someone who is a Master or Grand Master shooter, if they would be interested in giving you an hour or two of private lessons. It may cost you a couple hundred dollars, but it will be well worth it!
The knowledge/confirmation of the correct grip to use, and someone who KNOWS what that looks like, and how to make it work for you is priceless!


Live Simply, Love Generously, Care Deeply, Speak Kindly, Shoot Well, Leave the Rest to God.

 

[Wall]

Yes, you need a base before practicing drills from the books. The books are great for drills but they don't teach you the base. For that you need someone showing, teaching & critiquing. I'm sure you could find something or someone closer but I strongly recommend TDSA. As for your gun question, once you learn the proper fundamentals/build the proper base, you won't have the question. There will be guns that you like & shoot better or feel more comfortable than others but from your opening post, it sounds like you already have that.

 

[Wall]

Btw....Great topic
I'm willing to bet there are many, many others here that have struggled with the same problem.

 

[yury]

So far I'm gathering, the one shall seek more experienced instructor/trainer/master, who can determine if the shooter has a proper grip first. A pistol grip size is a secondary problem and it's hard to tell for a non-experienced shooter if a grip is less than optimal for them.

 

[Squid]

TDSA will put your training in high gear. In the mean time do not buy a new gun. Go to home depot and buy some 3M brand non skid tape. Lowes has some but it is not 3M and it sucks. Use alcohol to clean your pistol grip then apply the tape. It doesn't have to be a lot and it will make a huge difference. I agree that no video is going to get you a 100 percent grip but Bob Vogel has a pretty good one on YouTube that might be good for you to watch. I think Ron Avery also had a good one if I remember right. GO TO TDSA!

 

[yury]

Go to home depot and buy some 3M brand non skid tape. Lowes has some but it is not 3M and it sucks. Use alcohol to clean your pistol grip then apply the tape. It doesn't have to be a lot and it will make a huge difference.

Yes, I have grip tape. Nothing really changed. In my case, the weak hand slips after some rounds, and I have a feeling that the pistol flips as much as just holding it with only strong hand.

Will grip paste such as the Pro Grip (or whatever cool kids use this day) help in such case? Damn it, the Make Ready Pro Shop is out of stock for this product

 

[Bryan Hoover]

IMO Pro Grip is more for damp skin issues. It certainly won't hurt and I'm sure provides some level of help in all situations but I don't think it's a fix for what you're describing. Proper instruction and training are the fix. There are others that are closer but TDSA is the BEST!
Until then are you doing anything to improve your grip strength? If not you need to start. It's called work on your grip!

 

[yury]

Until then are you doing anything to improve your grip strength? If not you need to start. It's called work on your grip!

Nothing fancy: dead hang from pull up bar, static holding of hand grippers and spinning powerball. I hope this counts as working on a grip.

P.S. "weak hand", in the context of this discussion, is non-dominant or "other strong hand"

 

[Airic]

Grip size of the handgun shouldn't be a huge issue until your shooting smaller compact guns. I have the same grip and grip pressure on a G19 as I do on my G34.

The science: The big dogs shoot every nationals. Single stack to open. A lot of different grip sizes between a 1911 and 2011 open gun. They dont have different or special grips they have learned for each gun, they just make small adjustments.

I went through many different grip techniques over the years. I used to subscribe to the Enos even and light pressure grip, now i am crushing the grip as much as i can.

 

[Professor]

Can you grip it like the left picture below and reach the controls? Most importantly the trigger. You can work around the mag release a bit, but you need to be able to operate the trigger finger correctly and maintain a good grip. I've seen people have to change guns, grip modules/inserts/panels/backstraps, or modify the same to get a good grip.

You can shoot a gun gripped as illustrated on the right, and make up some of it with the support hand, but it won't be optimal.

 

[yury]

Can you grip it like the left picture below and reach the controls?

Yes, and yes I can control the trigger.

Funny that the photo from Lucky Gunner; and she has a post about the same issue http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/whats-wrong-grip/, which started my thinking about the thread subject. As I understand she solved it by moving away from double-stack: "Unwilling to give up my double-stack capacity, I saw little improvement in my recoil control at high rates of speed." So looks like I just need to do what she did: solicit for an opinion from a more experienced shooter.

 

[yury]

The science: The big dogs shoot every nationals. Single stack to open. A lot of different grip sizes between a 1911 and 2011 open gun. They dont have different or special grips they have learned for each gun, they just make small adjustments.

We cannot really tell for sure. As I understand differences between divisions not that small for this very subject and might be the reason why people settled on particular division because of this grip issue. For the Open division compensators permitted, so the gun does not produce the same flip as in the Production one. For the Limited division gun modifications allowed, so adding thumb rest would fix weak hand in proper position. For Single-Stack grip can be smaller, but I'm not sure about that.

Heh, now I'm interested in possible pistol grip modifications/small adjustements and why people make these.

 

[Professor]

Yes, and yes I can control the trigger.

Funny that the photo from Lucky Gunner; and he has a post about the same issue http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/whats-wrong-grip/, which started my thinking about the thread subject. As I understand he solved it by moving away from double-stack: "Unwilling to give up my double-stack capacity, I saw little improvement in my recoil control at high rates of speed." So looks like I just need to do what he did: solicit for an opinion from a more experienced shooter.

"He" is a "She", and Melody still carries a Glock double stack in a Keeper holster to the best of my knowledge. She did about a year ago when I shot with her in Given's advanced instructor class (at Karl's range) after that was written.

This was from earlier in the year from recoil magazine.

Melody also is a very small lady, she may weigh 100#s. I know she has ran 1911s before, but I think she has been running Glocks for a bit.


Also read Karl's input very carefully. The people that have difficulty running a 9mm slide seems to be the ones that benefit from the non-modern grip.

 

[yury]

"He" is a "She", and Melody still carries a Glock doubke stack in a Keeper holster to the best of my knowledge. She about a year ago when I shot with her in Given's advanced instructor class (at Karl's range) after that was written.

Indeed, good info -- fixed my response. Thanks

 

[yury]

That was quick: just glancing at my two hands holding the pistol grip, Kurt noticed that there is no enough pull action is happening. (Thanks, Kurt! :thankyou: ) Indeed, after carefully playing with the grip at home, I noticed that the weak hand was creating a crushing action but it was wasting all energy only in two points (forming some type of a U-joint). Pushing strong hand into weak one adds more contact points â€" now during a flip, the weak hand follows instead of staying in the same place. And since there is enough crushing force in the hand, I think having just regular pull/push ups will be just fine to work on a grip.

Another finding was that my .22 has the same grip size, and even bigger, and it feels comfortable too. Replacing the backstrap to a bigger size on the gun, I had issue with, made it no worse. However the strong hand feels now more relaxed and this allows the flexor digitorum profundus of the trigger finger flow more easily. So maybe size matter after all.