Getting a ffl

snowman03gt

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Jun 3, 2012
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Ok crazy I know but I want to get a ffl does anyone on here know how where or what I need to so to get one
 
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Until recently I held a 03 FFL for Curios and Relics. If that's the kind you're interested in I can walk you through the process. It was pretty easy.
 
I want one to to order guns online and ship straight to me without going to another dealer
 
snowman03gt said:
I want one to to order guns online and ship straight to me without going to another dealer
They don't make sure a thing, unless you are interested in curios & relics. In which case you can get type 3 FFL and have a fairly large list of older firearms and milsurp to choose from. You go through the process, pay the fees, and then you can buy from dealers who deal with C&R and have things shipped to your door. But, it is focused on collecting and doesn't include modern firearms.

Type 1 FFL's (type 2 if you are working out of a pawn shop, collectively what most people are referring to when just saying FFL) are business licenses and the ATF doesn't issue them unless you are actually in the business of selling firearms and have a retail space (even if it's just your garage or something, assuming local zoning allows for it).

Now that isn't to say that you have to intend to be a particularly busy dealer, or that you can't log the occasional gun out as purchased by yourself (or, I suppose, that is just kept as a company gun). But your primary purpose for the license has to be for business purposes and you have to keep up with the storage and record keeping requirments. If during the application process the ATF catches the drift you just want to buy firearms for yourself, someone drops the dime you aren't engaging in business, or when you go to renew the license they determine you aren't engaging in business like you are supposed to you can kiss your FFL goodbye.
 
Getting an 01 FFL without a brick n morter store is getting difficult as the BATF is trying to eliminate the "kitchen table" gun dealers.
 
biganimal said:
Getting an 01 FFL without a brick n morter store is getting difficult as the BATF is trying to eliminate the "kitchen table" gun dealers.
Yes and no.

You can run the business out of your house just fine, provided local laws/zoning allow for it the ATF will be fine and dandy with it if you have an ability to secure inventory and keep up with the required record keeping. Now, they may be a little more skeptical up front if you say you'll be running your business out of your garage, but if they are satisfied you will actually be engaging in business then there usually wont be an issue. A lot of gunsmiths work our of a garage/building on their property or a van after all. And they get the same FFL (Type 1 for regular retail, type 2 for a pawn broker) as a regular old gunshop.

BUT, the point again is that a FFL (with the exception of type 3 C&R FFL) is a business license. And the ATF will not issue the license if you aren't engaging or intending to engage in business, and they'll pull it after the fact if they catch wind you have discontinued business or lied during the application process. The crack down on "kitchen table" FFL's was a crack down on people who weren't engaging in business. They were using their FFL's primarily to obtain firearms for themselves and friends, and the ATF decided to stop turning a blind eye to something that was technically against the rules all along but wasn't being enforced.

I'm not saying I agree with any of this process, I think it be just fine and dandy for any of us to be able to mail order firearms just like it was before '68, but it is how it is unless/until we get the regulations changed.

And just to step off the legal/regulations aspect and onto a more practical IMHO note, attempting to get an FFL just to supply yourself with the occasional firearm is a pretty horrible waste of money. The license is 200 bucks and then another 90 every three years, a local business license may be needed will vary in cost depending on your location, and the time and space requirements for record keeping and storage of inventory isn't exactly low. This is still all assuming there are no local laws and your property is properly zoned for business.

The markup on new firearms is pretty low, and given the low volume you'd see with ordering a few firearms per year for yourself and some friends you certainly aren't going to be getting any volume discounts from the distributor, so you'll be saving maybe 5-10% on the average price of a particular firearm in your area. Closer to the 5%, if not less than that. Gun shops make their money on used guns and accessories. You also aren't going to be getting priority on shipments when it comes to popular guns or during a crunch like we're having at the moment either, in fact with your low volume expect to be frequently bumped to the back of the line to have your order filled. That's assuming the distributor you work with has no minimum order requirements. SO availability will be as bad if not worse during a crunch or for a popular firearm. The distributors are going to be taking care of their higher volume customers before filling your order. And anything you log out as transferring to your own private collection? Your supposed to pay all applicable taxes on that as it is considered a sale, your business is selling it to you. Ignore that at your own risk like any other business that avoids properly paying sales taxes.

So in short, depending on just how many firearms you plan on buying in this scenario, you're breaking even at best and more than likely loosing money on the deal. Now, there is the perk of getting discounts at places like Midway and Brownells, but you can get the discount with a 30 dollars every three years 03 C&R FFL. And IIRC it's the same discount.
 
Based on your stated desire, I would suggest starting with the C&R. It costs $30 and is relatively easy to apply for. It is hard to screw up the record keeping requirements and there are basically no storage requirements. The ATF can only inspect your books once per year, and you can opt to do it at their office rather than at your "premises" (house). If you decide to get out of the business, you can destroy your records.

The C&R FFL lets you acquire anything that is (1) 50 years or older or (2) on a special "C&R" list. For example, the CZ-82 9x18mm is on the latter list, despite being fairly modern. You can also cultivate a nice military surplus collection. I've acquired a few C&R items across state lines and had others mailed direct to my door.

Be sure you are aware of all the implications of getting a "kitchen table" FFL 01 at this time. You pay a large fee. You essentially give up your fourth amendment rights against unreasonable searches and seizures of your premises, which is your home. You are subject to invasive interviews and at least an annual compliance inspection, which can be done with a fine toothed comb. Minor violations of paperwork can result in serious penalties. As I understand it, if you transfer something out of inventory for personal use (like personal use range time, classes, or concealed carry) you need to do a NICS check and 4473 on yourself. Once you get out of the business, you need to send all your 4473s to the ATF for permanent storage, and possible incorporation into a database. AG Holder is not a "pro gun" kind of guy. I would expect increased scrutiny and regulation over the next few years.

Heck, I even let my C&R lapse recently due to the environment. Good luck if you really decide the FFL 01 is worth the hassle... but the FFL 03 may be an easier place to start, learn, and decide if you want to deal with the hassles.
 
Tigerstripe said:
i thought all 4473s had to be destroyed after a set time.

hence guns arent regerstired.


If you believe that then here ...please accept these government blankets. ( they have only a little bit of smallpox on them)
 
Tigerstripe said:
i thought all 4473s had to be destroyed after a set time.

hence guns arent regerstired.

The forms are either (A) kept at the FFL for 20 years, at which time they can be destroyed or (B) if the FFL surrenders their license and is no longer in the business, the 4473s are sent to the ATF for indefinite storage. I believe their facility is in West Virginia. From time to time, the ATF will go through an existing FFL's books and "ask" to copy the paperwork, and who knows where that information is stored.

Technically the stored 4473s may not be used to compile a "registry." There are no criminal penalties for doing so that I am aware of, though. The Obama administration has desired to computerize the forms (scan them), and they may have already done so. The question is whether the scanned forms have had OCR software run on them to put the information into a searchable database.

More here: http://www.pagunblog.com/2013/03/19/making-a-registry/

NICS checks results are also kept for "audit" purposes for some period of time and are not necessarily destroyed immediately.

Getting your own FFL may well expose yourself to even greater privacy invasions for a slight amount of convenience. Remember, the FFL 01 holder cannot use their inventory for personal usage without running a NICS check on themselves and filling out a 4473 to transfer the weapon out of inventory. All that paperwork can be audited at least once per year by ATF when they inspect your premises (in this case, your home).
 
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