DQ or no DQ, you make the call

jtischauser · Sep 20, 2014

Is this gun safe or unsafe? If you feel the gun is unsafe should the shooter be DQ'd? If you feel a DQ is warranted should it be a stage DQ or match DQ or simply 20-30 second penalty?

runawaygun762 · Sep 20, 2014

What type of match was it?

edit - The shooter should get extra consideration just for having the flag on the slide.

jtischauser · Sep 20, 2014

I would have DQ'd the shooter for an ugly ass pistol myself.

What does it matter what type of match it was?

LoganbillJ · Sep 20, 2014

Was the gun dumped in this condition?

jtischauser · Sep 20, 2014

LoganbillJ said:
Was the gun dumped in this condition?

Yes. Mag dropped slide racked but round didn't go flying. Or if it did it got pinched where you see it.

LoganbillJ · Sep 20, 2014

I would say safe as the chamber is clear and slide is out of battery. No way for the hammer to fall or rd to cook off. That said different matches have different rules.

jtischauser · Sep 20, 2014

Gun was grounded as you see it here. I don't care what the rules of any match say. I'm asking what you think or consider a safely grounded pistol.

Burk Cornelius · Sep 20, 2014

Unsafe grounded pistol. Match DQ

runawaygun762 · Sep 20, 2014

Don't different sanctioning bodies has different definitions of what constitutes loaded or unloaded? The pistol is obviously safe and it would be a dick move to DQ the shooter, but if a sanctioning body says unloaded is defined as no live ammunition in the weapon, this would technically not be considered unloaded. Now, if it's a 3GN-governed match, it's considered safe IAW the following rule:

1.5.1.2 Safety Condition Two "Empty Chamber"
1.5.1.2.1 Empty chamber, with no live rounds in feed tube or magazine removed.

If it is a USPSA match, according to rule 5.3.5, it would be a match DQ because the pistol was abandoned with the safety off.

That's why I asked which type of match it was.

Burk Cornelius · Sep 20, 2014

David Marlow said:
Now, if it's a 3GN-governed match, it's considered safe IAW the following rule:

1.5.1.2 Safety Condition Two "Empty Chamber"
1.5.1.2.1 Empty chamber, with no live rounds in feed tube or magazine removed.

That gun is not safe by either of those rules

runawaygun762 · Sep 20, 2014

How is it not safe by those rules? The round isn't in the chamber, it's pinched between the slide and the feed ramp, and the mag is removed. I am absolutely not claiming to be an expert, and I'm not even a certified RO, but I did stay in a Holiday Express once and it seems black and white to me.

45recoil · Sep 20, 2014

If a round HAS to be out of a gun, isnt a glock or any striker fired gun technically grounded unsafe? Conversely i know rules are interpreted based on gun, in this case one that has external safety.

Round isnt cleared from gun therefore dq. No different than dumping a locked back shotgun bolt and a round from matchsaver bounces in and bolt closes. elephant dung happens.

runawaygun762 · Sep 20, 2014

The rules I read seem to universally say if a firearm has a safety, it must be engaged if the gun is still loaded, and strikers are mentioned as having passive safeties. That's why I can't wait for Glock to come out with a rifle and shotgun with a "safe action" trigger on each and no manual safety. Problem solved, right?

Wall · Sep 20, 2014

If a round HAS to be out of a gun, isnt a glock or any striker fired gun technically grounded unsafe? Conversely i know rules are interpreted based on gun, in this case one that has external safety.

No

This is why

The rules I read seem to universally say if a firearm has a safety, it must be engaged if the gun is still loaded, and strikers are mentioned as having passive safeties. That's why I can't wait for Glock to come out with a rifle and shotgun with a "safe action" trigger on each and no manual safety. Problem solved, right?

45recoil · Sep 20, 2014

David Marlow said:
The rules I read seem to universally say if a firearm has a safety, it must be engaged if the gun is still loaded, and strikers are mentioned as having passive safeties. That's why I can't wait for Glock to come out with a rifle and shotgun with a "safe action" trigger on each and no manual safety. Problem solved, right?

an unsupported rifle chamber scares me a bit
Lol.

Wall · Sep 20, 2014

Round isnt cleared from gun therefore dq. No different than dumping a locked back shotgun bolt and a round from matchsaver bounces in and bolt closes. elephant dung happens.

agreed

or a shotgun with an empty chamber & one on the lifter.......dammit

45recoil · Sep 20, 2014

Thats sorta my point and why i added the differing safeties in the style of guns without really expounding on it. With a 1911/2011 the ext safety must be engaged if round is chambered. But in this case it cant be since out of battery. This sucks for the shooter and a tough call for the ro, md. There is a short list of requirements to declare the gun safe...i.e. empty chamber, mag out, locked back, safety engaged. If one requirement is met then the next one is default. Empty chamber...check. mag removed from gun...check...but then you have thw other factors...round is in gun, safety is not engaged.

runawaygun762 · Sep 20, 2014

I'm not trying to be contrary, because as I said, I'm not an RO, but I'd like a bit more feedback on this, because I want to start RO'ing(?) matches. As for whether or not the gun is safe, there's no doubt It can't possibly fire, and the round would have to be manipulated very deliberately to go into the chamber, as opposed to falling down through the mag well. According to USPSA rules, it is a match DQ, because the weapon is equipped with a manual safety and it isn't engaged. If you are a match official and this is done under 3GN rules, what rule would you use to justify a match DQ and how would the rules I posted above not apply? Again, this is a good learning event for me and I'm not trying to get in a pissing contest, but as a newer multigun competitor and wannabe RO, this is good elephant dung.