bambamcliffy
Fanatic
i would prefer a dao semi-auto. i think it would put less strain on the spring and the hammer. opinions (good or bad) are always welcome.
DAO V. DA/SA
- Thread starter bambamcliffy
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gwmac
Well-Known Fanatic
It really depends on the pistol. For instance the Sig 250 has the smoothest DAO trigger I have ever fired. On the other hand Keltec and some of it's clones are among the worst DAOs. I think wear on the springs and hammer in SAO pistols is insignificant.
Avtomat-Acolyte
Well-Known Fanatic
Prefer for what purpose?
Single-action lends to much more rapid and accurate follow-up shots. I (and some other humans that I have encountered) can also shoot more accurately with a handgun at extended distances with single-action as opposed to double action.
There are handguns that have a Double/Single Action trigger action, whereas the first shot is double-action but all subsequent shots are single action. Some people don't like that and think it is a detriment as opposed to a very deliberate design feature.
When carrying a concealed handgun on or about my person it is either a Glock 17 (Double Action Only) or a 1911A1 (Single Action Only). I have gotten rid of all of my double/single action handguns (HK USP, Beretta 92) for various reasons, none of which have to do with the trigger mechanism.
Single-action lends to much more rapid and accurate follow-up shots. I (and some other humans that I have encountered) can also shoot more accurately with a handgun at extended distances with single-action as opposed to double action.
There are handguns that have a Double/Single Action trigger action, whereas the first shot is double-action but all subsequent shots are single action. Some people don't like that and think it is a detriment as opposed to a very deliberate design feature.
When carrying a concealed handgun on or about my person it is either a Glock 17 (Double Action Only) or a 1911A1 (Single Action Only). I have gotten rid of all of my double/single action handguns (HK USP, Beretta 92) for various reasons, none of which have to do with the trigger mechanism.
RK3369
Well-Known Fanatic
It's an interesting question. I have a few DAO guns and a few DA/SA guns. What I find is when I shoot mostly the DA/SA guns at the range, I tend to use the trigger more in the SA more primarily as it seems to be a shorter reset and is less of a change from starting in the DA mode then it changing to SA after the first shot. I do not mind, and actually prefer for carry, the DA/SA arrangement, because it gives me more comfort to carry that gun if it has no safety when I understand it has a longer DA first shot trigger. What sometimes gets me is that if I shoot a DA only gun, sometimes I tend not to release the trigger far enough to allow it to reset, and occasionally have found myself pulling for the second shot only to realize that the trigger has not reset. AT least with the DAO's that I have, they seem to have a much longer reset than the DA/SA models. At least for me I think I come to expect the SA mode and then don't always release enough to allow a DA trigger to reset, which might not be good in a SD situation.
rotarymike
Well-Known Fanatic
I've always preferred DA/SA pistols as the first long trigger pull means that you have to really intend to shoot something to do so. Just like a DA revolver or DAO pistol. The follow-up shots are easier. But...
Honestly, when training with, say, the Mozambique drill (two quick pointed shots to center mass, one aimed shot to head if required) if you do it properly you won't notice the difference in trigger pull.
Slow fire, my DA/SA pistol is more accurate once I get past that first shot, as the SA requires less trigger pressure. But shooting as above, both my full-size DA/SA and my compact DAO have the same perceived trigger feel.
The only pistol I've shot that was significantly different was the German P6 my wife has; as delivered, it had a 24# trigger spring and extremely long pull. She couldn't actually fire it without two fingers on the trigger. That was the German safety protocal - long pull, heavy DA stage.
The other thing you need to look at in your worry about hammer notch and spring wear is how long a DA/SA guns stays in that condition. The whole point of the dual action is so that you don't have to carry the arm cocked in order to be ready to fire. So they are carried hammer down, with first shot being DA. Once the incident is over the gun will be decocked or empty, and returned to a safe condition to reholster. If you actually shot someone with it, CSI or the scene commander will make sure the gun is no longer in SA (they're supposed to unload, safe, and secure it as evidence). So it won't sit that way very long.
Honestly, when training with, say, the Mozambique drill (two quick pointed shots to center mass, one aimed shot to head if required) if you do it properly you won't notice the difference in trigger pull.
Slow fire, my DA/SA pistol is more accurate once I get past that first shot, as the SA requires less trigger pressure. But shooting as above, both my full-size DA/SA and my compact DAO have the same perceived trigger feel.
The only pistol I've shot that was significantly different was the German P6 my wife has; as delivered, it had a 24# trigger spring and extremely long pull. She couldn't actually fire it without two fingers on the trigger. That was the German safety protocal - long pull, heavy DA stage.
The other thing you need to look at in your worry about hammer notch and spring wear is how long a DA/SA guns stays in that condition. The whole point of the dual action is so that you don't have to carry the arm cocked in order to be ready to fire. So they are carried hammer down, with first shot being DA. Once the incident is over the gun will be decocked or empty, and returned to a safe condition to reholster. If you actually shot someone with it, CSI or the scene commander will make sure the gun is no longer in SA (they're supposed to unload, safe, and secure it as evidence). So it won't sit that way very long.
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
Columbia City Police used to carry, and I believe are still phasing out DAO Sig .45s. The officers get extremely fatigued on the range and get what everyone calls the "Sig shakes" due to the extremely long pull and pull weight. This isn't conducive at all to proper fundamentals or worthwhile training.
gwmac
Well-Known Fanatic
"Slow fire, my DA/SA pistol is more accurate once I get past that first shot..." but in a critical situation it's the first shot that counts. If it's on target, you don't need a second. Which is exactly why I prefer SAO.
rotarymike
Well-Known Fanatic
When I'm shooting defensively, at least how I've always trained, I am NOT shooting slow fire.
Two rapid pointed shots to center mass are as equally accurate whether starting from DA or from SA.
If I have time to sit there, aim carefully, and let my sights settle then I have enough time that I don't need to shoot.
Two rapid pointed shots to center mass are as equally accurate whether starting from DA or from SA.
If I have time to sit there, aim carefully, and let my sights settle then I have enough time that I don't need to shoot.
Avtomat-Acolyte
Well-Known Fanatic
gwmac said:
In a "critical situation" you are likely rapidly squeezing the trigger until slide-lock and chances are that you don't have a good sight picture.
gwmac
Well-Known Fanatic
Sorry Mike, I misunderstood.
Only a little familiar with the design but recently saw an internet training piece featuring this design as a alternative to something like a Glock or 1911. I think they thought it was safer because you load the magazine and use a decocker to bring then hammer down for carry. The DA takes place for the first shot then SA thereafter. No safety to use while in Condition One like a 1911 or hammer to fumble bringing down. I can see why some would prefer this.
rotarymike
Well-Known Fanatic
No worries. If you want to see what I'm talking about, I'd be glad to meet you at ATP or Boggy Head and let you try one of each at a target placed at defensive distances.
I need to go shoot at ATP to pre-qual for basic pistol instructor anyway.
I need to go shoot at ATP to pre-qual for basic pistol instructor anyway.
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
gwmac said:
One shot one kills from a pistol, excluding executions, are rare defensively. Time should be taken to place follow up shots until the guy isn't moving anymore rather than squeezing off a shot and waiting to see if it stops him
