Stag Arms 3 Gun Rifle

I'm waiting for them to release the uppers. Then I'll change out the handguards to Magpul, put a flashlight and sights on it and call it done.
 
yes it does. It's really light but it's long with no wall. I never no when it's gonna go off on slow long range shooting. I guess it will take some getting used to. You are welcome to shoot it anytime.
 
Jesse Tischauser said:
yes it does. It's really light but it's long with no wall. I never no when it's gonna go off on slow long range shooting. I guess it will take some getting used to. You are welcome to shoot it anytime.
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I have one in mine and really like it. The short reset is nice. But this is my first trigger ever so I really do not have a bunch of different experience with other triggers to compare it to. I don't think it's as horrible as Trapr and others were letting on.
 
Its definitely NOT horrible! I am so used to all of my gun's triggers having some take up then a wall that I can prep the trigger to during muzzle flip. This one has no wall which I miss.
 
Spiff said:
Nooooo. Leave the free float tube on it. Or put a different one on.
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Don't like them. I always put to much crap on the front of the gun. I mean, do I really need an IR designator as a retiree? The Magpul MOE handguards allow me to add the rail sections for the flashlight and thats all I really need on my carbines. Plus the EOTech EXPS 3-0. Plus the G.23 3.5x magnifier.
 
The free float tube isn't for gadgets although it can be used to attach slings and stuff. It is there mainly to improve accuracy. If you put any pressure on your non free float handcuffs you are putting that same pressure on your barrel which will cause your POI to shift drastically.
 
Jesse,

I carried an M-16 or a varient thereof for over 20 years and never noticed a significant POA/POI shift with conventional handguards. And I regularly jumped out of airplanes with those guns and sometimes landed on them while performing some semblence of a PLF. I've dropped them, kicked them, put a bayonet on them and stuck them in the ground with fluids hanging off of them, slung them across my shoulders and rested my arms on them, and they still shot well enough that I'm still here.

What do you consider a drastic shif of the POI? Those abused M-16's still shot middle of the bad guy accuaracy out beyond 200m when they were needed. Might cost you points in a match shot on a square range, but the SOB at the other end sure stops bothering you on a two-way range. Same thing about carrying a .45 instead of a 9mm when you are restricted to FMJ ammo by directive (treaty, law, ROE, etc.) of the need to have something that absolutely works under the worst of conditions.

Years ago, the competition shooting community looked at the military and LE community to find out what worked and didn't work, now they look at what you guys are doing - filters it through battlefield reality - and then adopts some of what you guys are doing. In the main, FF handguards didn't get adopted. Robie Leatham instructs the SOF guys in shooting techniques under time preasure, not how to use those same guns to do something productive. Same basic technique, different applications.

I don't have any competition guns, just guns that I have acquired for what I believe to be my real world views / applications. I chose my guns and other gear to meet my perceived needs, not the USPSA or IDPA rulebooks. If the holster for my HK45c arrives in time, I will be shooting a lighted handgun on Sunday not because I'm shooting indoors, but because that is how the gun is sitting in my desk drawer next to me right now. I also use competitions as a way to practice on courses set up by someone other than myself to expand my experiences. Not that I don't love watching you guys do what you do - its awesome. It's just not the reason I come out to shoot.

So again, in your application, FF tubes are probably required. In my world, not so much.

Don
 
You don't get it. Putting pressure on your non freefloat handguard and/or barrel WHILE SHOOTING will cause a POI shift probably 2-4" to maybe 6" or greater the further you are shooting. It is fact. Just because mike mil or larry le use nonfreefloat doesn't mean there isn't a better way... For this 'game' at least.
 
Wormy,

2" - 6"? At what range? How many MOA are we really talking about?

I get what Jesse is saying - for a competitor. This isn't posted in the competition portion of the board.

Don
 
I believe the last time I experimented with this, it was something like 2" at 50, 4" at 100. That's putting 'medium' pressure on the barrel while shooting. If I were to put more pressure, it would be greater. Another thing is it isn't consistent. It may be 2" one shot and 5" the next. It's still 'minute of man' but that isn't good enough for competitions.

I'm on my iPhone so I can't see what section this is in. I was just wanting to clarify what Jesse was saying.
 
Roger, understand.

You are both right about the competitive aspect and it applies to me if I want to add another rifle to be used strickly for competition and still hunting applications. I just choose not to do that and am willing to take the hits while competing.
 
I believe all 3 of my AR's are general purpose rifles. I hunt with one, have one at my bedside and in my truck, and one I compete with and keep by the bedside and in the truck. My competition AR is the most versatile. And all 3 have free float handguards. I wouldn't hesitate to grab any of them if I were going out to call a coyote, shoot a deer, or defend my property or life. One is more competition worthy than the other two however it gives up nothing. I've literally had zero malfs with it in nearly 3,500 rounds. Couldn't say the same for my bushmaster, that's why I no longer own that pos.

I understand where you are coming from and what you are saying. This isn't the first time I've heard this debate and I'm sure it won't be the last. I just do not see anything real reason not to go with a quality FF over nonFF, unless it for the cost.
 
Getting your barrel free floated is one of the top 3 best things you can do to improve accuracy behind a good barrel and good trigger. You can buy a free float tube that looks just like the magpul handguards as well. They don't have to be 15" like the one on the Stag Arms 3 Gun competition rifle.

When I was in the Army I made damn sure that my POS M16A2 was zeroed slung up for support with the same pressure on it at all times. I knew if I was ever shooting at people (thankfully I didn't have to do that) that I woudl want to sling up and get some hits. That POI shift can be 2-3 MOA at 100 yards easily especially when you add the adrenaline of fear into the mix.

If you don't want the FF tube whent you get your Stag I will gladly buy it from you. They are great!
 
I have to disagree with your top 3 best things that you can do to improve accuracy. First is to take an honest assessment of your individual shooting style and proficency to see if your accuracy problems are hardware (gun) or software (you) related. If the gun is mechanically capable of shooting to 2 MOA, but you are only capable of shooting 4 MOA, then doing anything to the gun is a poor investment at this point. Go take a class, go buy (load) a bunch of ammo and go out and work on your fundementals. When you can shoot those 2 MOA everytime, then look at what you want to do specifically with your shooting and make the necessary adjustments to your hardware. Who knows, 2 MOA may be acceptable for your desired results.

How do you know if the limitng factor is software or hardware? Get someone else to shoot your weapon, preferably someone who is better at the way you want to shoot then you are. If I'm shooting 4 MOA and Wormy is getting 2 MOA out of my weapon, and Jesse is getting 1.5 MOA out of it, the gun is not the primary issue. If one the other hand, we're all getting about 4 MOA its probably the gun that is the limiting factor, not me. BTW, look at the group size, not the position of the group. Size indicates capability, positioning indicates for whom the sights are regulated.

Jesse - if you were issued, or allowed to add, a real shooting sling to your M-16, then you were in a better unit than I was. We were not issued slings, we were issued carrying straps made of web and later nylon. And we only used those for parades and passing in review at a change of command. The rest of the time, we didn't even have front sling swivels on the rifles since they made so much noise. The only time I got to use a real sling was during a specific course at Ft Bragg. And then only with the M21 that we were using in the course. The other guy that you were teamed with got to carry a standard M14 with, you guessed it, the web carrying strap.

I also agree on the fear factor, I'm not sure that my eyes were even open for the first "real usage" magazine, I'm pretty sure that all I did was add to the noise and confusion of that ambush.

I gave the FF rails from my Stag 2TL to my gunsmith in exchange for him adding the delta ring and other parts necessary to run normal handguards, but I'll keep you in mind for the ones from the new upper.
 
I've caused a 6" POI shift in a Colt AR-15 SP1 (same as M16A1, pencil barrel, but no full auto goodies) at 100 yards just by slinging and unslinging in prone.
 
Spiff said:
I've caused a 6" POI shift in a Colt AR-15 SP1 (same as M16A1, pencil barrel, but no full auto goodies) at 100 yards just by slinging and unslinging in prone.
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Probably a good reason to not use a pencil barrel.
 
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