18" Fore End, 20-22" Top Rail, 18" Barrel, and a 2" Comp with Iron Sights?

[Patrick Palmer]

I'm tired, I'm new to guns, and I'm thinking an exact opposite of what we see with 22" Shotgun Barrels and +8 NC Magazine Extensions. An 18" Barrel with a 2" comp wrapped up or enclosed by an 18" fore end with an attached 22 - 24" top rail. Front Iron Sight on the end of the rail (assuming it doesn't droop due to the iron sight weight) and the back Iron Sight on the receiver as normal. You'd get a nice long sight radius, over a standard barrel size. Maybe even a better sight radius than you could normally achieve with any size barrel as long as you kicked the top rail out further than the fore end and barrel/comp length.

Or if the attached top rail would droop if left alone - replace the 18" fore end and rail with a 22-24" railed fore end for added durability at length (one of those with open sides to allow expelled gasses to get out).

So what key piece of information am I missing about what happens during a competition (tactical iron maybe) or shooting a carbine in general that would make this a bad idea?


Thanks,

Medicius

 

[Spiff]

For dedicated irons guns, putting the front sight on the end of the float tube is a big no-no. Every time you brace up against something, your front sight's moving. It needs to go on the barrel if it's anything other than backup.

 

[jtischauser]

For dedicated irons guns, putting the front sight on the end of the float tube is a big no-no. Every time you brace up against something, your front sight's moving. It needs to go on the barrel if it's anything other than backup.

This!

Those 15" and longer free float tubes move around a bunch.

 

[KurtM]

I don't think I would like to drop that set-up into an a abandonment barrel!

I don't want this to sound mean or condecending, because it certainly isn't meant that way, but sometimes things are set up the way they are because they work best just that way. A whole lot of things have been tried in Limited division, both here and Over Seas where limited DOESN'T have any dot sights and The extended sight radius rifle like you see in my avitar is what works.

The whole concept of an extended Iron sight rifle based on the AR platform dates back to 1999, where a guy who used to shoot an M-14 at all matches got sponsored by an AR builder. He couldn't focus on the front sight at "standard" AR sight radius (20") so he and his brother finally figured out a good way to place a sight out at the front of the rifle just behind the comp making it "more like an M-14". Now, 13 years latter, there arte several companies building clamp on sights just for this purpose. Matter of fact that orriginal rifle is still around with the orriginal front sight on it, but it is on its 4th barrel by now, and the comp is just abouit chewed up last time I saw it.

 

[Wall]

Matter of fact that orriginal rifle is still around with the orriginal front sight on it, but it is on its 4th barrel by now, and the comp is just abouit chewed up last time I saw it.

I think I might have seen that rifle once or twice.
Does it have an empty shotshell protecting the front sight these days

 

[Patrick Palmer]

Ok, thanks for the response. I figured there was a reason why no one was using a front sight out beyond the barrel, but I couldn't figure out why not if a larger distance between the front and rear sights makes for a more accurate shot. And I didn't take any offense. A critiqued response is, by nature, intended to be negative or positive. It's why we call it constructive criticism in a professional setting (I believe). It's a nice way of saying that the info I'm giving you may "hurt your feelings" but was intended to help you see the error/mistake/etc and allow you to do better next time.

I can't see the rifle in your avatar. Is there a link to a larger version of the picture? Also, is the issue that the front sight is just too far away and not able to be seen when pictured through the rear sight?

Thanks,

Medicius

 

[KurtM]

No, that doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

[Patrick Palmer]

Darn. Back to google search then

 

[KurtM]

Search away, we already told you what works.

 

[jtischauser]

The two options are an Armalite or JP A2 looking front sight post clamped onto the end of the barrel.

If you want a longer sight radius the only way to get it is to run a longer barrel with the setup Kurt uses.

 

[KurtM]

Listen to Jesse he is the best Iron Sight shooter in the U.S., or maybe even the world. He has run Iron sights against scope guys and still beat them. I know you won't listen to me, but at least listen to the guy who has run irons more than anyone esle......Jesse T

 

[Matt1911]

I heard Jesse T was the guy who originally came up with the idea for iron sights on guns. Before he came along everyone was just shooting from the hip like Rambo.

Thanks Jesse for bringing us the iron sight and also for perfecting the art of 3-gun competition.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

i heard jesse invented weak hand reloading!!!

 

[jtischauser]

I planned to run Iron's once. Kurt told me all that stuff and I was ready to go. Then I took one shot at 300 with Pinto's Oly Arms rifle which even has the rear DPMS sight set an extra notch rearward in the upper and I couldn't see crap with my designer spectacles. So I then was about to order a pair of those Decot shooting glasses. Unfortunately they didn't make them with a big enough lens to cover my ego. So it was back to TO for me.

 

[jtischauser]

I even grew a handlebar mustache but still couldn't hit anything.

 

[Patrick Palmer]

Search away, we already told you what works.

I know you won't listen to me, but at least listen to the guy who has run irons more than anyone else......

Kurt, I think there's a disconnect in our communication somewhere.

My comment above about going back to google search wasn't to continue with the idea of the longer sight on a top rail or even related to finding a better way to use iron sights. It was because I still didn't understand why it didn't work. You gave me information in the above post about the guy who used the M14 etc. And while that gave me some back story related to your comment, it didn't tell me why the longer distance between the two wouldn't work. I figured your one-line response stating "No, that doesn't have anything to do with it." not only meant my understanding of the situation was incorrect, but also that you were annoyed with me for asking. Hence, I stated that I'd head out to Google again, but should have stated outright that it would be to see if I could get more information related to sight distance or the use of an M14 in competition rather than to continue to pester you with questions.

There was never an intent on my part to ignore your comments. That would be stupid on my part. I may be slow at times, but I'm not stupid.

In closing, I'm trying to understand the...theory(?)...behind why what works, works. If you have key words, search words, titles, etc that I can use to search Google for more information I'll gladly accept it. I gotta figure my beginner level questions are tiresome as there is probably a site online, book, etc, that already describes what I need/want to ask.

 

[Spiff]

Naw, Uncle Kurt's just getting grumpy in his old age. Basically, the further out the front sight is, the easier it is for your eyes to see both the front sight and the target. Also, with a longer sight radius (the distance between the rear aperture and the front post), the same distance error in sight alignment means a smaller angular error in sight alignment, which means for the same oops your bullet strikes closer to where you wanted it.

The M-14 is a great irons rifle because it has a 22" barrel with the front sight waaayyy out on the end of the barrel (meaning it's easier to see the front sight and the target) and the rear peep right in front of the eye (meaning that in combination with the front sight on the end of a long barrel, the sight radius is good.)

So you want to achieve those sorts of things on an irons rifle, but you also want to do it in a way that's repeatable and durable.

 

[jtischauser]

If your front sight ain't on the barrel it won't work. The FF tube can move independent of the barrel so if your sight is on the tube your poi will change as the tube/sight moves.

If the sight is on the barrel the sight moves with the barrel and it will be repeatable.

The real moral if this story is that Shooting 10" targets at 300 yards with Iron's ain't easy or fun without a lot of practice. Guys like Kurt have been shooting irons a long time. It takes a lot of practice to get good and have fun. Do yourself a favor and get a $300 scope such as the Burris Tac30 and you will be WAY better off and have more fun.

 

[Patrick Palmer]

Ok, thank you for the explanation.

 

[KurtM]

My response was meerly a direct reply to your query of, is the issue that you cant see the front sight? Not ment any way at all. Look at some of the "space guns" used in high power shooting and you will see sight radius,s on the order of 40" with bloop tubes installed on a 28" barrel.. sight radius is your friend with iron sights, but for 3-gun, I doubt you would want a rifle with a 40" long barrel/ sight extensi. Every reason Jesse gave you is correct, as is what Spiff said. I don't mind any question, but remember since you cant see me or hear my inflection, don't assume how something like a short answer is ment.