Is a 44 mag legal to carry?

[WillR]

This question came up in another thread. I thought it was a good question.
I asked a SDA instructor about the 44 being illegal to carry. He said it was since it was "bigger" than a 45. The law says 45 or smaller. So I read the 44 is legal. I have heard this point come up before. I can't find anything that says the 44 is illegal to carry. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Adam Striegel]

44 is illegal to carry in Oklahoma

 

[WillR]

TITLE 21 § 1290.6 PROHIBITED AMMUNITION
Any concealed handgun when carried in a manner authorized by the provisions of the Oklahoma Self- Defense Act, Sections 1 through 26 of this act, when loaded with any ammunition which is either a restricted bullet as defined by Section 1289.19 of Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes or is larger than .45 caliber or is otherwise prohibited by law shall be deemed a prohibited weapon for purposes of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be punished for a criminal offense as provided by Section 1272 of title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes or any other applicable provision of law. In addition to any criminal prosecution for a violation of the provisions of this section, the licensee shall be subject to an administrative fine of Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), upon a hearing and determination by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation that the person is in violation of the provisions of this section.

http://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/SDA_Lawbook_NOV_2011.pdf

I'm not trying to be argumentative but a 44 isn't larger than a 45.
Why do you say it is illegal?

 

[Jefpainthorse]

math kids -math

.45 is larger than .44 (nominal bore and bullet diameters)

The SDA text clearly says "not larger than .45 caliber". Nominal 45 caliber pistols like 454 Casul are still .45's. Your 1911 thats built up around the .50 GI would be forbiden under SDA rules. So would a 50 cal Deagle. A handgun like a 44 Mag or 44 special and it's usual ,429 inch cast bullets would be legal in Oklahoma.

When the SDA was first adopted about 18 years ago- the ".45" was the largest, commonly available, commercially produced standard handgun cartridge in the world. There are several "45's out there for sale". The usual standard cast bullet for the 45 ACP mikes out at .451 or 452".... larger that .45.... yea- but the cited calibers are "nominal" so they are legal as defined. Common sense should tell you that we would not be buying N framed 44 Snub revolvers or 1911's if they were against the law.


BTW... a 460 Smith and Wesson and the .480 Ruger can both fire 45 Colt (Long Colt style) cartridges.... where does that fall in the mix.

 

[Iggie]

I am guessing. But I believe that it goes by bullet diameter in which 44mag is .429 that's.021 under .45 but .454 casull is bigger therefore illegal. But what I suggest you do and what I am about to do is email osbi.

 

[Beau]

I asked this question at my ccw class and the instructor said 44 is smaller than 45 so you can carry it. .50 as jeff stated is bigger and not allowed

 

[WillR]

Let us know what they say chase.

 

[Iggie]

Let us know what they say chase.

Will do. I also asked about ccw at lakes.

I asked them what determines caliber such as bullet diamater, cailber name, or cartidge diameter

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Will do. I also asked about ccw at lakes.

I asked them what determines caliber such as bullet diamater, cailber name, or cartidge diameter

Expect a dumb answer... this stuff is pretty common knowlege and industry convention about the calibers.

The lakes--- ask away. But seeing that they are parks....with water....

 

[WillR]

That should take them about 3 months to answer.

 

[Iggie]

Expect a dumb answer... this stuff is pretty common knowlege and industry convention about the calibers.

The lakes--- ask away. But seeing that they are parks....with water....

Unfortunatley... industry standard and public opinion arnt always to the letter of the law. Which is part of why so many laws get debated and spun different ways in court.

 

[WillR]

Jeff - I would think the answer is pretty straight foreword also. But I have heard this come up quite a few times and can't figure out why.

 

[Burk Cornelius]

TITLE 21 § 1290.6 PROHIBITED AMMUNITION
or is larger than .45 caliber or is otherwise prohibited by law shall be deemed a prohibited weapon

Unfortunatley... industry standard and public opinion arnt always to the letter of the law. Which is part of why so many laws get debated and spun different ways in court.

One side of me would say that anything that is marked commercially with a number of "45" or smaller would be acceptable in court without much argument (like a 44 magnum).

The part of me that thinks like a lawyer (sad) says that if the bullet diameter is larger than ".45" like a 454 Casull or 460, it would be risky because the prosecutor would ask the expert witness "Is a 454 Casull larger than a .45?" They would likely answer "yes" And then the prosecutoer would say "so, Mr. Cornelius, you were using a prohibited caliber when shot the defendant?"

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Jeff - I would think the answer is pretty straight foreword also. But I have heard this come up quite a few times and can't figure out why.

Not a lawyer... but I do stay in Holiday Inns sometimes-

In this case- it is a common sense thing. By the logic of your freinds or associates who debate such things ...my '45 Colt' is a "45 Colt" under OK law... even if its a 45ACP with bullets that mic out to .452 because they fit my bore better. I carry a 45 and most LEO folks I know know I do- if it was illegal we'd be getting a heads up.

The 44 thing--- those people who debate that are simply idiots who have nothing but time to confuse their pea brains. "44" in any carnation is clearly smaller than the SDA approved ."45"

Now common sense tells me--- if I ran into a stupid cop while strapped with a 454 Casul... I'd probably have to argue my way out of that with the judge sell the county prosector on how to read a micrometer. Most of those folks are educated and would not waste tax money on a techinical argument that is not a clear violation anyway. Other hand--- if we got busted with a .50 DE... I'd expect the fine.

I am going back a little here so any legal eagle correct me... but the 45 cal standard is prima facie or "face value"... a "45" is a "45"... thereore a GUN marked "46" would be a violation. Because the caliber is common knowlege the burden of proof would be on a prosecutor to prove it's not what it appears to be.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

One side of me would say that anything that is marked commercially with a number of "45" or smaller would be acceptable in court without much argument (like a 44 magnum).

The part of me that thinks like a lawyer (sad) says that if the bullet diameter is larger than ".45" like a 454 Casull or 460, it would be risky because the prosecutor would ask the expert witness "Is a 454 Casull larger than a .45?" They would likely answer "yes" And then the prosecutoer would say "so, Mr. Cornelius, you were using a prohibited caliber when shot the defendant?"

I'd think that in cross examination a prima facie based question would shoot that down. After all... if your shooting went south with a 45 ACP and the recovered unfired bullets that were surrendered for evidence miked out the .451... you could blow that apart easily. YOUR expert witness can produce reams of factory manuals, descriptions, gun articles etc that prove a ."45" is indeed a "45".

I'd be pretty confident that any lawyer could knock the wind out of any bullet diameter argument and win the point on the concept that "calibers are what they are- based on face value of what's marked on the gun or standard descriptions of the firearm>
Seeing that the 480, 454 C, 460 SW will all fire 45 Colt (and it's common knowlege) I could see that .454 is bigger argument going south pretty quickly too.


Unless you get a Obama-fan as your Judge LOL

 

[Jefpainthorse]

Not totally related... but when I lived in another state we had a self defensive shooting (several actually) where the bad guy was shot with big bore hunting handguns.

Of course the state tried to cast the caliber selection in a bad light...seems if you shoot a bad guy with a large caliber handgun it's sort the same a saying it's OK to rape an exotic dancer in the parking lot because she did a lap dance and "had it coming".

The defense in all those cases was- It was the closest gun I had ...or it's the only gun I own. I'd expect to find case law and precedent that would dillute any problems related to "caliber" for the sake of caliber in a case of self defense.

If a tweaker found you on a deer stand and your pistol of the moment was a 454 Casul... it dont' think the argument would hold up of a prosecutor going on that as a major part of his case...

 

[Iggie]

We are talking legal to carry calibers not legal to shoot. If you were in the same deer stand with a .50ae or 30-06 it would make little difference as your hunting. Just refering to calibers that are and arnt legal to carry...according to ok law and caliber measurments.

 

[WillR]

44 is illegal to carry in Oklahoma

Why do you say this Adam?

 

[Jefpainthorse]

We are talking legal to carry calibers not legal to shoot. If you were in the same deer stand with a .50ae or 30-06 it would make little difference as your hunting. Just refering to calibers that are and arnt legal to carry...according to ok law and caliber measurments.

I brought that up because you can hunt with a CC handgun on you. Let's say your CC gun for the day is a X frame Smith under your coat (legally)... if its a ,460 loaded with 45 Colt....that's were the real conflict could arise.

this thread started under the ill fated premise that a 44 is bigger than a 45... and that patently speaking OK law forbids carriage of a "44" under OK law.
Am I missing something here--- or are we beating a dead horse?

 

[Adam Striegel]

Why do you say this Adam?

The instructor in my SDA very specifically said that the .44 Mag was illegal to carry concealed. I'm starting to wonder if I took the wrong SDA class... lol