What role did open carry play in this murder?

[Prdator]

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/1/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/
The 16-year-old accused of killing two people in less than seven hours last week in Richmond has several felony convictions, including one for a violent crime.
Toby Smith Jr. is accused of stealing Blaine Tyler's gun inside a gas station last week and fatally shooting him after Tyler chased Smith inside the store.
The Richmond teenager also is accused of fatally shooting Pierre Walter "Pete" Cosby hours later in an attempted robbery in the Oak Grove neighborhood in South Richmond.
Smith, who was arrested Monday and charged in last week's two killings, was convicted in 2010 of malicious wounding, grand larceny and burglary, according to court papers filed in Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court.
Tyee Marquel Hamiel, another 16-year-old Richmonder, also faces charges in Tyler's killing but not in Cosby's. Hamiel's criminal history includes convictions in 2007 of grand larceny and malicious wounding, according to court records.
Smith and Hamiel also were convicted of attempted grand larceny on the same day in August of this year, the records show.
"This isn't the first time that they've been in trouble together," said Richmond Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Andy Johnson.
Johnson declined to discuss the specifics of the suspects' prior cases because they involve juvenile records, including what sentences they received.
The court records were filed this week as part of the discovery process for the current cases against Smith and Hamiel. The documents do not list sentencing information or details about the crimes.
Judge Marilynn C. Goss of Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court denied a motion by a Richmond Times-Dispatch reporter to view portions of the case files for the previous convictions. She ruled that the prior hearings were closed and that the information on the cases, including any sentences handed down, would remain confidential.
Johnson, speaking generally about juvenile cases, said it is rare in Richmond for a juvenile to be sent to detention after his or her case is adjudicated.
"Our goal is to try to get through to these kids before they become adults so we don't automatically lock them up every time they do something wrong," he said.
However, in the cases now pending against Smith and Hamiel, prosecutors will try to have the teens tried as adults and, if the suspects are convicted of murder charges, they could face up to life in adult prison.
Smith's attorney, Robert D. Shrader Jr., and Hamiel's attorney, John G. Lafratta, declined to discuss the cases against their clients.
No one answered the door Friday at the home of Smith's mother in the 300 block of East 11th Street in the Blackwell neighborhood in South Richmond. Court papers list that address as the home of Smith but also give another address for him.
A woman who answered the door Friday at Hamiel's mother's home at the Midlothian Village Apartments in South Richmond said she would have no comment. No one came to the door at the home Hamiel shared with a sister in the 2400 block of Atwell Lane near Jefferson Davis Highway and Bellemeade Road.
Authorities say last week's homicides both involved a robbery or attempted robberies, but it was unclear why or how each victim was selected. Also unknown is whether either suspect knew either victim.
Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.
Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.
"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.
According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.
Cosby, 32, was sitting with a woman in a car in the 1700 block of Edwards Avenue about 2:30 a.m. last Saturday, when Smith walked up and tried to rob them, according to court documents. The woman hurried out of the car and heard gunshots as she ran. Police found Cosby dead in the vehicle.
Smith faces 17 charges, including two counts of murder in the deaths of Tyler and Cosby, along with robbery of Tyler and two counts of attempted robbery in the Edwards Avenue slaying. Hamiel faces eight charges, including murder and robbery of Tyler.
Preliminary hearings for both teens are set for Jan. 30.


Open carry is a hot topic, and I believe that it might be very convenient but it comes with some potential serious side effects. Just getting folks to come take a two day 800-1000 round handgun class is hard enough... To get folks to come take a class like CQT at USSA or ECQC with the S'Narc ( Southnarc) is SO much harder and IMHO this is the type of training that one needs before utilizing open carry. Im sure that the LEO's on this site would concur that weapon retention is one of the hardest things to learn and teach.
This is also a subject that I'm torn on. As a 2A supporter I think ANY control or infringement is to much!!! As an SDA and Advanced handgun instructor I think the SDA class is a joke and not near enough training!!

 

[Rodshoot]

I don't consider the SDA course to be training at all. It is a state mandated hurdle to be met to obtain a CHL.
States like UT which do not require firing at all but emphasize laws have a better record than OK on licensees obeying the law.
I vehemently oppose having state-mandated training to exercise a Constitutional right. We don't want 60 yr old Grandmas having to pass the CLEET course to have a CHL. And yes, it was seriously discussed at first that everyone would have to pass the CLEET course, including physical requirements, to get a CHL.

I am a fervent advocate of training, just against government mandates (which often turn into barriers).
I offer the OK CHL course for $20 as a loss leader if the student will take Personal Protection in the Home first, and get dang few takers. The majority pay someone else $60 for the CHL course and consider themselves "trained." The attitude, "I'm a guy so I automatically know all about shooting and I read the internet" is ridiculous, but quite prevalent.

Having grown up in the open carry state of KY, I'd say the open carry in the quoted article is essentially irrelevant to the outcome. Why? Most filling stations have a gun around somewhere, and in casing the place, will be the first target of the robbers. Ironically, in my hometown, the majority of the package store and station owners shot with their own guns kept the guns in a drawer under the cash register, and were first overpowered before the gun was taken. This includes a former high school classmate, who ironically was shot by someone who frequented the station often (and was caught in hours).

I perfer concealed carry around people, even in KY, but I have no illusions I would have much chance against a couple of toughs I let get close enough to both grab me.

If you want something to blame for this crime, how about blaming letting vicious criminals loose after violent crimes?

 

[TroyF]

To answer Spencer's main question Ive had to look at this from several angles. Before the flogging starts, understand that this area is where I have spent the last 15 years of my life. I've defended my pistol in open carry (full uniform) and concealment (from my days of working undercover narcotics). I teach cops, all over this state, defensive tactics and weapon retention. I've learned from the best, and I've had my arse handed to me in that learning process. I may not be able to run a 2 second Bill Drill (yet), but I do know how to bring the fight to bad guys.

1: there simply isn't enough information provided to determine with certainty what role the open carry pistol played. We would need statements from the suspects to form a motive for attacking the victim in the manner described above. Something along the lines of "he looked weak and I thought I could get the gun from him without much effort". If that was the case, than the answer is, the open gun was a big factor.

2: anyone who would willfully attack someone who is openly carrying has a different thought process than most of us can comprehend. If they were brazen enough to attack him, knowing he had a gun, they would have had no qualms about attacking him if he were concealing. So the answer is also, not a factor.

Taken at face value you must opine that the open carry did play a role in this murder, simply because the openly carried weapon was the murder weapon.

IF the victim had been trained, in a manner such as what Southnarc or Mike Brown teach, had the physical skill sets and physical stamina, and had been carrying concealed....the outcome of this event very well could be different. He would have had the option of choosing the time the gun was brought into the fight. As it turned out, the suspect chose the time to introduce the gun. And apparently that time was FROM THE GIT-GO. I would imagine that the suspect had the victim on his heels, trying to defend that gun. It's easier to defend an attack, and bring the gun to bear when you get the opportunity.

Again I go back to something I've said on these forums many times, "as your awareness level of the evil world goes up, so must your level of preparedness". If you are so brazen to carry openly, you have the moral obligation to make damn sure you can protect that gun. I'm not talking about walking around on your property, I'm talking about open carry in public places. If you walk into 7-11, you owe it to every person in that store to do everything withing your ability to make sure that gun doesn't cause them harm.

 

[ToolBox]

To answer Spencer's main question Ive had to look at this from several angles. Before the flogging starts, understand that this area is where I have spent the last 15 years of my life. I've defended my pistol in open carry (full uniform) and concealment (from my days of working undercover narcotics). I teach cops, all over this state, defensive tactics and weapon retention. I've learned from the best, and I've had my arse handed to me in that learning process. I may not be able to run a 2 second Bill Drill (yet), but I do know how to bring the fight to bad guys.

1: there simply isn't enough information provided to determine with certainty what role the open carry pistol played. We would need statements from the suspects to form a motive for attacking the victim in the manner described above. Something along the lines of "he looked weak and I thought I could get the gun from him without much effort". If that was the case, than the answer is, the open gun was a big factor.

2: anyone who would willfully attack someone who is openly carrying has a different thought process than most of us can comprehend. If they were brazen enough to attack him, knowing he had a gun, they would have had no qualms about attacking him if he were concealing. So the answer is also, not a factor.

Taken at face value you must opine that the open carry did play a role in this murder, simply because the openly carried weapon was the murder weapon.

IF the victim had been trained, in a manner such as what Southnarc or Mike Brown teach, had the physical skill sets and physical stamina, and had been carrying concealed....the outcome of this event very well could be different. He would have had the option of choosing the time the gun was brought into the fight. As it turned out, the suspect chose the time to introduce the gun. And apparently that time was FROM THE GIT-GO. I would imagine that the suspect had the victim on his heels, trying to defend that gun. It's easier to defend an attack, and bring the gun to bear when you get the opportunity.

Again I go back to something I've said on these forums many times, "as your awareness level of the evil world goes up, so must your level of preparedness". If you are so brazen to carry openly, you have the moral obligation to make damn sure you can protect that gun. I'm not talking about walking around on your property, I'm talking about open carry in public places. If you walk into 7-11, you owe it to every person in that store to do everything withing your ability to make sure that gun doesn't cause them harm.

Sound wisdom right there!

 

[Deacon]

Again I go back to something I've said on these forums many times, "as your awareness level of the evil world goes up, so must your level of preparedness".

Thank you for this.
We have a responsibility folks. If you're going to carry, you don't have the luxury of not being on the gun.

 

[FZFan]

I am trying to understand what the victim was doing running unarmed after a guy that had his gun and at that point was in control of the situation. They obviously already had possession of it and I would say at that time get as far away from them and call the cops. This may have saved his life.
Of course more information is needed but that is how I read it in the article.

Is there any video of the first robbery anywhere?

But I agree, put the criminals away and this may not have happened.

 

[jspeligene]

To get folks to come take a class like CQT at USSA or ECQC.

What are these classes?

 

[Prdator]

To get folks to come take a class like CQT at USSA or ECQC.

What are these classes?

They are Force on Force classes, were you take out the "Agreed upon event" ( like sparing in a dojo or boxing) and you REALLY get a feel for what you can do under Extreme stress. I know both instructors and they really are great guys that take lots of pride in teaching the tactics needed to survive a truly determined attack.
Here is a link to CQT http://www.usshootingacademy.com/training_course.aspx?id=15 and to ECQC, ( by the way I have Craig "aka Southnarc" coming to the OKC gun club March 23-25.) http://shivworks.com/