The Law of Self Defense by Andrew Branca

poopgiggle

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Yesterday I decided that I'd had it with Internet forum threads full of idiots with Wikipedia law degrees echoing other idiots with Wikipedia law degrees asking questions like "if I put aftermarket sights on my carry gun, will the EVIL PROSECUTOR bend me over and take me to brown town?" I'd heard of The Law of Self Defense from a few different places, so yesterday I got the Kindle version off Amazon for $25. It's a book about the legal aspects of self-defense shootings written by a lawyer who actually has experience with cases involving legit self-defense shootings. I can't believe I've been carrying for years and read this yet.

I'm like 2 chapters in and it's pretty good so far.
 

DD78

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I bought that book shortly before I received my carry license. I'm in Illinois so we just finally got ours back in 2014, but during the period of time that I had to wait, which was probably around 3 months, I read the entire book.

It's definitely a great resource for all of us because it answers questions based on actual case law versus "a friend of a friend said that his neighbors cousin went to jail for carrying reloads because the prosecutor claimed he made extra deadly bullets".

Although if you live in a state that hates guns as much as mine, and a county where if you actually do have to shoot someone, it better be on the up and up otherwise you will be charged.

Great book though, and I highly recommend everyone read it more than once because it puts a stop to a lot of the misinformation out there.
 

DD78

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dennishoddy said:
So, for those that have read it, is there an issue with reloads in a carry gun?
I probably used a bad example because I don't remember that point being addressed specifically in the book.

Mas has stated a few times that you don't want to use it in the event that a prosecutor has a reason to bring a case against you, and then that'll more than likely be used.

Personally I've never found a case where someone had to defend themselves and their reloads were used by the prosecution. If you're being prosecuted, I think reloads would be the least of your worries.

Most prosecutors only take slam dunk cases that they know they have an extremely high likelihood of winning. My step mom's brother is a states attorney and he won't take cases unless the evidence would all but guarantee a win on his record. Many of those types have political aspirations so a 90+% win rate looks good on campaign propaganda.

I prefer factory self defense ammo because of the amount of money they put in R&D. I can cook up excellent hand loads, but for my carry gun, I'll use whatever the factory cooked up.

My uncle only shoots SD ammo when he practices with his carry gun (he's rich), and when I've asked him why, he says it's because he wants to shoot loads that feel identical to what he's carrying, and the best way to do that is to shoot what he carries. There's a lot of logic to that, however I can cook up loads using cheap plated bullets that have identical velocities, and the felt recoil is the same....so I can practice for a fraction of the cost.

One theory I've read is that the lab geeks will test your ammo and comparing it to known factory loads is impossible because yours are hand loaded. Personally I think that's a load of bull because even factory loads differ based on lot numbers, so making an apples to apples comparison would be impossible.

But as I mentioned earlier, if they're questioning your hand loads, that means that they have a reason to question the shoot, which is not good.
 

poopgiggle

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DD78 said:
One theory I've read is that the lab geeks will test your ammo and comparing it to known factory loads is impossible because yours are hand loaded. Personally I think that's a load of bull because even factory loads differ based on lot numbers, so making an apples to apples comparison would be impossible.
IIRC, Mas has written about an actual case where that was a thing.
 

DD78

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dr poopgiggle said:
IIRC, Mas has written about an actual case where that was a thing.
I have a whole bunch of bookmarked articles from him and others. If I can find that because it vaguely sounds familiar, I'll post the link.

Most of what I can recall Mas saying on the subject is that it gives one more thing for a prosecutor to add into their bag to paint you as a vigilante hellbent on killing.

I'll still say though that if a prosecutor is bringing a case against a person in a SD shooting, something else didn't pass the sniff test.

I'm just outside of Chicago, and even here the corrupt prosecutors haven't pressed charges against people with carry licenses who've been involved in shootings. There was actually one idiot who pulled his gun out to fire at some guy trying to escape the police. I'm extremely surprised that he wasn't charged with anything in that situation. I think the guy robbed a cell phone store or something, and police just happened to be in the area and were chasing him on foot. A couple other incidents involved gangbangers shooting at someone, and a concealed carrier happened to be right there and returned fire. No charges for the CCW'ers. Although Chicago PD did take the one guys gun and it took them something like 9 months to give it back to him.

But even at that, this is why I stay out of Chicago despite living 5 minutes walking distance from it.

If people are interested in seeing how all of the various gun laws in Chicago are working, check out this site: http://heyjackass.com
 

Andrew Branca

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Hey folks, this is Andrew Branca, the author of the aforementioned, "The Law of Self Defense, 3rd Edition." I'll be happy to answer any questions anyone might have about the book. I'd encourage you to ask them quickly, however, as it's been my experience that "evil book writers" have a short half-life on gun forums.)

In terms of using reloads as carry ammo, I generally answer that question with a questions: Why? Modern self-defense ammo is excellent, and almost certainly at least equal to if not superior to hand loads. (Full disclosure, I'm a reloader myself for competition purposes, and have loaded many, many, many thousands of rounds of 45ACP and 9mm on my Dillon XL650.) So, performance-wise, I don't see any advantage to be gained, and if anything your own reloads may well be inferior.

Legally speaking, from a technical perspective hand loads shouldn't make any difference whatever. A bullet is a bullet is a bullet when it hits that other fellow, and either you had legal justification to shoot him or you didn't. If your defensive gun use is otherwise very solid (e.g., you knew the rules and didn't screw up) I expect it's very, very unlikely that the fact that you used your own reloads is going to do anything to change that.

That said, if your defensive gun use is NOT otherwise very solid, it's somewhere in that gray area where the prosecutor is weighing things to determine whether he thinks it's a winner (for him!) or not, then the fact that you used your own hand loads could be that incremental factor that leads to him to decide, what the heck, he'll go for it, this feels like a story he can sell to a jury.

Of course, the prosecutor IS free to BRING UP that you used your own reloads in self-defense, and try to make something out of it. Keep in mind that prosecutors are ALLOWED to shout almost ANYTHING to a jury, especially during opening and closing statements. Sure, the jury is told that open and close are not evidence on which they can arrive at a verdict--but they heard the words anyway, didn't they? A good example of how silly this can get is when Prosecutor John Guy in the Zimmerman trial kept shouting--literally, SHOUTING!!1!!11--about the fact that Zimmerman was carrying his pistol WITH A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, READY TO FIRE!!!11!!!1!!

Well, duh. (I've got the actual video clip of Guy's "chamber" rant around here somewhere, if I find it I'll post it, if I can figure out how to post videos on this forum. Hmm, maybe this will work, hold one .... )

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bLiM4w6itkI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

(If that didn't work you can click over to the video on my Youtube, here: https://youtu.be/bLiM4w6itkI)

(If that didn't work, sorry, that's the limit of my IT abilities. There's a reason I went to law school.)

Of course, it's hard to know ahead of a DGU if we're going to end up with a robust self-defense narrative or a shaky narrative, so personally I choose the err on the side of greater caution and try to put all the chips in my favor that I can--and that means factory ammo for me.

Of course, factory ammo is not cheap, and if my budget were REALLY tight (factory ammo vs. food for the kids) I'd go ahead and carry my own hand loads without much worry. I'd rather have the hand loads and be prepared to deal with any legal fallout than have a sharply worded retort.

Hope that's helpful.)

In closing, given the multiple reference to Massad Ayoob above, I feel obliged to mention that I myself am an Ayoob student, having taken his (then called) Lethal Force Institute I class way back in 1996. As a then very, very young attorney it was LFI-I that led me to re-direct my legal practice to specialize solely in use-of-force law, starting with the publication of the first edition of my book in 1998. When Mas still lived in New Hampshire he and I frequented the same range, the Pioneer Sportsmens Club, and shot many matches there. I consider him both a mentor and colleague. I was humbled, indeed, when Mas agreed to write the foreword to the latest edition of my book.

All of that is just preface for me to urge that if you have the opportunity to attend one of Mas' classes you are doing yourself a terrible disservice if you don't take advantage of that opportunity. All the rest of us in the use-of-force training community stand on the shoulders of men like Mas, and nobody teaches forever. If you wait too long, you might find you've missed your chance. Indeed, I would go so far as to suggest that if you find yourself needing to choose between one of my own classes and Mas', you ought to seriously consider first attending Mas'.

--Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
 

dennishoddy

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Thank you very much for the information.
Always been curious about the reloads in a SD case.
I do carry factory SD ammo in my carry guns, but all of my rifles use reloads because each needs tuned to that gun for accuracy.
 

poopgiggle

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Law of Self Defense said:
Hey folks, this is Andrew Branca, the author of the aforementioned, "The Law of Self Defense, 3rd Edition." I'll be happy to answer any questions anyone might have about the book. I'd encourage you to ask them quickly, however, as it's been my experience that "evil book writers" have a short half-life on gun forums.)

In terms of using reloads as carry ammo, I generally answer that question with a questions: Why? Modern self-defense ammo is excellent, and almost certainly at least equal to if not superior to hand loads. (Full disclosure, I'm a reloader myself for competition purposes, and have loaded many, many, many thousands of rounds of 45ACP and 9mm on my Dillon XL650.) So, performance-wise, I don't see any advantage to be gained, and if anything your own reloads may well be inferior.

Legally speaking, from a technical perspective hand loads shouldn't make any difference whatever. A bullet is a bullet is a bullet when it hits that other fellow, and either you had legal justification to shoot him or you didn't. If your defensive gun use is otherwise very solid (e.g., you knew the rules and didn't screw up) I expect it's very, very unlikely that the fact that you used your own reloads is going to do anything to change that.

That said, if your defensive gun use is NOT otherwise very solid, it's somewhere in that gray area where the prosecutor is weighing things to determine whether he thinks it's a winner (for him!) or not, then the fact that you used your own hand loads could be that incremental factor that leads to him to decide, what the heck, he'll go for it, this feels like a story he can sell to a jury.

Of course, the prosecutor IS free to BRING UP that you used your own reloads in self-defense, and try to make something out of it. Keep in mind that prosecutors are ALLOWED to shout almost ANYTHING to a jury, especially during opening and closing statements. Sure, the jury is told that open and close are not evidence on which they can arrive at a verdict--but they heard the words anyway, didn't they? A good example of how silly this can get is when Prosecutor John Guy in the Zimmerman trial kept shouting--literally, SHOUTING!!1!!11--about the fact that Zimmerman was carrying his pistol WITH A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, READY TO FIRE!!!11!!!1!!

Well, duh. (I've got the actual video clip of Guy's "chamber" rant around here somewhere, if I find it I'll post it, if I can figure out how to post videos on this forum. Hmm, maybe this will work, hold one .... )
Code:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bLiM4w6itkI"frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
(If that didn't work you can click over to the video on my Youtube, here: https://youtu.be/bLiM4w6itkI)

(If that didn't work, sorry, that's the limit of my IT abilities. There's a reason I went to law school.)

Of course, it's hard to know ahead of a DGU if we're going to end up with a robust self-defense narrative or a shaky narrative, so personally I choose the err on the side of greater caution and try to put all the chips in my favor that I can--and that means factory ammo for me.

Of course, factory ammo is not cheap, and if my budget were REALLY tight (factory ammo vs. food for the kids) I'd go ahead and carry my own hand loads without much worry. I'd rather have the hand loads and be prepared to deal with any legal fallout than have a sharply worded retort.

Hope that's helpful.)

In closing, given the multiple reference to Massad Ayoob above, I feel obliged to mention that I myself am an Ayoob student, having taken his (then called) Lethal Force Institute I class way back in 1996. As a then very, very young attorney it was LFI-I that led me to re-direct my legal practice to specialize solely in use-of-force law, starting with the publication of the first edition of my book in 1998. When Mas still lived in New Hampshire he and I frequented the same range, the Pioneer Sportsmens Club, and shot many matches there. I consider him both a mentor and colleague. I was humbled, indeed, when Mas agreed to write the foreword to the latest edition of my book.

All of that is just preface for me to urge that if you have the opportunity to attend one of Mas' classes you are doing yourself a terrible disservice if you don't take advantage of that opportunity. All the rest of us in the use-of-force training community stand on the shoulders of men like Mas, and nobody teaches forever. If you wait too long, you might find you've missed your chance. Indeed, I would go so far as to suggest that if you find yourself needing to choose between one of my own classes and Mas', you ought to seriously consider first attending Mas'.

--Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
TIL you can summon Andrew Branca to a forum by saying you like his book.

Seriously though thank you for the information

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wav3rhythm

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Lawton, OK
dr poopgiggle said:
TIL you can summon Andrew Branca to a forum by saying you like his book.

Seriously though thank you for the information

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But was it necessary to copy his entire post?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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