bigfutz
Well-Known Fanatic
Does anyone have any experience or opinions on the drop in 22LR conversion kits for AR's, such as those mfg'd by CMMG?
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cat=81
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cat=81
Opinions on 22LR Conversion for AR
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SuperChuck
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I have a CMMG dedicated upper that is sold elsewhere on the CMMG site, as well as an India CMMG drop-in conversion kit. I then purchased a 22 rimfire only barrel to add to my kit and eliminated the 22 chamber adapter.
At the Spring Shootzenfest , I know there were several Drop-In kits present, represented by CMMG, Ceiner, and possibly Black dog.
I believe the only issues experienced with the kits was trying to get them to cooperate with a Full Auto lower... which requires a few additional accessories and some patient tweaking.
Overall, I'm happy with my kits. In both cases, I've opted for a 22 bolt assembly with a dedicated 22 Cal barrel, as opposed to the .223 Drop in kits you mentioned. (I bought the CMMG India kit and had it altered to work with a dedicated 4.5" pistol barrel.)
I managed to get some good deals on the upper ($304), kit($189) and mags ($14), if you are looking to buy direct from CMMG, there's definitely a savings involved with going to another vendor. If you are likely to possibly want to shoot it full-auto, you may be more inclined to check out the Ceiner with the accessories needed for that conversion. Supposedly the Ceiner works with other kits, but there may be slight issues trying to mix and match.
Overall, it gives a lot of cheaper trigger time for practice sessions. The worst part, as with any shooting, is keeping the magazines loaded.
SC
At the Spring Shootzenfest , I know there were several Drop-In kits present, represented by CMMG, Ceiner, and possibly Black dog.
I believe the only issues experienced with the kits was trying to get them to cooperate with a Full Auto lower... which requires a few additional accessories and some patient tweaking.
Overall, I'm happy with my kits. In both cases, I've opted for a 22 bolt assembly with a dedicated 22 Cal barrel, as opposed to the .223 Drop in kits you mentioned. (I bought the CMMG India kit and had it altered to work with a dedicated 4.5" pistol barrel.)
I managed to get some good deals on the upper ($304), kit($189) and mags ($14), if you are looking to buy direct from CMMG, there's definitely a savings involved with going to another vendor. If you are likely to possibly want to shoot it full-auto, you may be more inclined to check out the Ceiner with the accessories needed for that conversion. Supposedly the Ceiner works with other kits, but there may be slight issues trying to mix and match.
Overall, it gives a lot of cheaper trigger time for practice sessions. The worst part, as with any shooting, is keeping the magazines loaded.
SC
bigfutz
Well-Known Fanatic
Thanks, SuperChuck for your super response. I guess my main concern would be any potential side effects of shooting 22 in my 223/5.56 barrel. FYI, my AR is a YHM factory build with chrome lined 1:9 16" barrel. My intention is to use the kit for plinking and semi-dry fire practice (aka practice on the cheap), but I would switch back to 5.56 for serious business.
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
I am also curious of the effects on the 5.56mm barrel using .22LR rounds.
You said you bought a dedicated upper to use so the chamber adapter is no longer needed. Did you experience chambering/extraction malfunctions with the drop-in conversion bolt on the .223/5.56mm chamber and barrel?
I am glad you started this thread, BigFutz, because after my tax stamp comes in for my 5.56mm suppressor, I want to get a .22lr conversion for plinking and extra noise reduction.
Thanks
You said you bought a dedicated upper to use so the chamber adapter is no longer needed. Did you experience chambering/extraction malfunctions with the drop-in conversion bolt on the .223/5.56mm chamber and barrel?
I am glad you started this thread, BigFutz, because after my tax stamp comes in for my 5.56mm suppressor, I want to get a .22lr conversion for plinking and extra noise reduction.
Thanks
SuperChuck
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I think the main issues with the chamber adapter is keeping it clean. typical 22 twist is 1:16, with the 1:9 you should not see any particular issues, as its a faster twist.
Typical 22 fouling and overall "dirtiness" as opposed to good centerfire ammo are the biggest concerns.
My "low-end" upper is actually a 5.45x39, which isn't compatible with the kits. I went with the dedicated barrels and uppers because I only had a single 223 upper, and its a heavy contour, varmint type, there wasn't any reason for me to consider it a "cheap" host as opposed to a standard upper.. and I figured swapping uppers was about as easy as changing bolt assemblies, a new dedicated upper made sense to me..
If you want a LOT of trigger time practice with you main weapon, then the adapter makes the most sense, because you get to match the feel and trigger pull, weight, pointing, etc, etc of your preferred weapon - giving you a lot more practice for "instinctive" pointing and shooting with the exact same weapon (aside from recoil and ammo cost).
In my circumstances, I found the dedicated upper a better fit, especially with my plans for an SBR 22 AR upper.. I've never worked with a drop-in adapter at this point.
SC
Typical 22 fouling and overall "dirtiness" as opposed to good centerfire ammo are the biggest concerns.
My "low-end" upper is actually a 5.45x39, which isn't compatible with the kits. I went with the dedicated barrels and uppers because I only had a single 223 upper, and its a heavy contour, varmint type, there wasn't any reason for me to consider it a "cheap" host as opposed to a standard upper.. and I figured swapping uppers was about as easy as changing bolt assemblies, a new dedicated upper made sense to me..
If you want a LOT of trigger time practice with you main weapon, then the adapter makes the most sense, because you get to match the feel and trigger pull, weight, pointing, etc, etc of your preferred weapon - giving you a lot more practice for "instinctive" pointing and shooting with the exact same weapon (aside from recoil and ammo cost).
In my circumstances, I found the dedicated upper a better fit, especially with my plans for an SBR 22 AR upper.. I've never worked with a drop-in adapter at this point.
SC
Clicker
Well-Known Fanatic
The CMMG kits seem to work fine in semi, we've had issues when attempting to run them FA with a RDIAS equipped lower. I run a Ciener kit with the chamber adapter, it works well in semi or full auto on my RR. I don't think you'll have any problems with the CMMG or Ciener kits for semi auto plinking.
The only thing that's different in my case is I don't run barrels with gas tubes. My two uppers are dedicated to 22LR use and I've plugged or eliminated the gas port/tube. Both are 5.56 barrels.
I would caution you about dry firing the kits since I tend to believe the firing pins are a weak spot and don't need any more stress. Furthermore I'd be concerned about the FP peening the chambers edge. While it may not be an issue as a rule I don't dry fire any of my 22LR be they pistol or rifle.
The kits are fun and I've probably shot over 10K rds thru mine. So far I've broken two firing pins, one sear trip, busted the back plate off the guide rail assembly and replaced several recoil springs - did I mention how much fun these things are?
The only thing that's different in my case is I don't run barrels with gas tubes. My two uppers are dedicated to 22LR use and I've plugged or eliminated the gas port/tube. Both are 5.56 barrels.
I would caution you about dry firing the kits since I tend to believe the firing pins are a weak spot and don't need any more stress. Furthermore I'd be concerned about the FP peening the chambers edge. While it may not be an issue as a rule I don't dry fire any of my 22LR be they pistol or rifle.
The kits are fun and I've probably shot over 10K rds thru mine. So far I've broken two firing pins, one sear trip, busted the back plate off the guide rail assembly and replaced several recoil springs - did I mention how much fun these things are?
bigfutz
Well-Known Fanatic
Clicker said:
I can understand your dedication
but would you anticipate any problems with leaving the gas tube intact? Reduction in pressure? Does the tube allow gas to escape back into the receiver? Any cleanliness issues?I presume these are recoil operated, but I don't know much about how they operate other than that. I was hoping it was not much more to it than dropping the kit in in place of the bolt (and up into the chamber) and maybe slapping some sort of adapter into the mag well. How far off am I? And do you have any opinion on the bore? I may be getting ahead of myself, but do these have any preference on ammo? Thanks for all the input.
Clicker
Well-Known Fanatic
I ditched the GT in order to keep the kit cleaner. You should be fine simply pulling the BCG and dropping the 22 conversion into the upper.
The mags don't require an adapter they fill the mag well and use the regular mag catch. I would suggest, odd as it sounds, picking up a short 10 rd mag as the 30's are too long to shoot from a rest w/o bumping on everything.
I use almost any decent high velocity ammo and the 40 solids are better suited IMO. Copper washed (like MiniMags or Win Super X) is even better but harder to come by and more costly. I prefer the Aguila / Centurion ammo. Federal bulk pack has worked OK, I stay away from the Remington bulk. I've had more dud rounds from Remington than any other brand of bulk pack ammo.
The mags don't require an adapter they fill the mag well and use the regular mag catch. I would suggest, odd as it sounds, picking up a short 10 rd mag as the 30's are too long to shoot from a rest w/o bumping on everything.
I use almost any decent high velocity ammo and the 40 solids are better suited IMO. Copper washed (like MiniMags or Win Super X) is even better but harder to come by and more costly. I prefer the Aguila / Centurion ammo. Federal bulk pack has worked OK, I stay away from the Remington bulk. I've had more dud rounds from Remington than any other brand of bulk pack ammo.
SuperChuck
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My barrels don't even have gas tubes, so I didn't take that into consideration for overall cleanliness..
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
Again, I'm in the same boat with BigFutz. I have standard 16" AR, and am looking at the kit that simply drops in, replacing the BCG and possibly the charging handle, and my AR has a gas-tube, not a piston operated AR.
Clicker, I don't plan on ever running the kit on full auto, so do you think that will cut down on some of the breakage you described? That's basically one malfunction every 2500 rounds. Why did you need to replace the buffer spring? Or is there some other spring in the .22lr conversion kit I'm not aware of? Also, will running .22lr's wear the barrel at the same rate as 5.56mm or at a slower rate? I don't want to end up replacing the barrel in 2 year's time. If that's the case, I might as well buy a dedicated upper with BCG included.
Clicker, I don't plan on ever running the kit on full auto, so do you think that will cut down on some of the breakage you described? That's basically one malfunction every 2500 rounds. Why did you need to replace the buffer spring? Or is there some other spring in the .22lr conversion kit I'm not aware of? Also, will running .22lr's wear the barrel at the same rate as 5.56mm or at a slower rate? I don't want to end up replacing the barrel in 2 year's time. If that's the case, I might as well buy a dedicated upper with BCG included.
Clicker
Well-Known Fanatic
Sorry guys I should have been more specific about shooting these conversions in a standard 5.56 set up. I don't think you'll develop any problems from doing so other than the barrel & gas tube will get a bit dirty. I would recommend a pass with a bore brush or snake after shooting several hundred 22's before firing 5.56 ammo again. A shot of brake cleaner down the GT will help flush any crud from there as well. I bet most people don't even do that much and are still fine.
The barrel wear from 22LR ammo is negligible, you will never "shoot out" a barrel with 22LR ammo.
The parts failures I've had are due to high volume shooting at very high cyclic rates, like 1100 to 1300 RPM in full auto. The recoil spring I replaced are the ones on the kit not the AR recoil/buffer springs
These kits are plug & play. Just remove your BCG and drop the conversion kit in - no other parts need to be swapped. Some folks will run a light weight hammer spring but I feel for semi use it's not required. There are plenty of other tricks but I won't confuse you guys with those now, we'll worry about them if your kits don't run!
While I own a Ciener kit the CMMG kit's I've seen looked very nice in terms of fit & finish. They are available in SS which makes cleaning a little easier. The firing pin can be removed without tools on at least one of the CMMG versions - very nice feature! Their FP seems a better design vs the Ciener. I've gone so far as to grind an AR15 firing pin to fit my kit!
The only issue with a CMMG kit I've seen was one was very tight when cycling the bolt. Perhaps it will loosen up over time who knows but this can affect function and if possible hand cycle the kit you intend to buy to check for any binding or rough spots.
If you need a challenge ask me about the Lakeside LM7 belt fed 22 kits! No never mind don't ask cause it's been a real PITA.
The barrel wear from 22LR ammo is negligible, you will never "shoot out" a barrel with 22LR ammo.
The parts failures I've had are due to high volume shooting at very high cyclic rates, like 1100 to 1300 RPM in full auto. The recoil spring I replaced are the ones on the kit not the AR recoil/buffer springs
These kits are plug & play. Just remove your BCG and drop the conversion kit in - no other parts need to be swapped. Some folks will run a light weight hammer spring but I feel for semi use it's not required. There are plenty of other tricks but I won't confuse you guys with those now, we'll worry about them if your kits don't run!
While I own a Ciener kit the CMMG kit's I've seen looked very nice in terms of fit & finish. They are available in SS which makes cleaning a little easier. The firing pin can be removed without tools on at least one of the CMMG versions - very nice feature! Their FP seems a better design vs the Ciener. I've gone so far as to grind an AR15 firing pin to fit my kit!
The only issue with a CMMG kit I've seen was one was very tight when cycling the bolt. Perhaps it will loosen up over time who knows but this can affect function and if possible hand cycle the kit you intend to buy to check for any binding or rough spots.
If you need a challenge ask me about the Lakeside LM7 belt fed 22 kits! No never mind don't ask cause it's been a real PITA.
Clicker
Well-Known Fanatic
Cost primarily, you can go the conversion route for half the cost of a complete rifle. They work well but speaking for myself I don't want or need another AR style rifle to lug around in order to shoot 22's.PapaBear said:
bigfutz
Well-Known Fanatic
Well I think I'm sold on the conversion. Thanks for all your input. As for the dedicated upper, the main reason I want this (now at least) is for practice with MY setup, and a dedicated 22 upper would alter that.
Now, it's time to go shopping!
Now, it's time to go shopping!
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
Clicker, thanks for all the help. I'm sure I will have some questions in the near future, so I hope you are ready to answer them when I think of them!
BigFutz...let me know what kit you decide to go with. I've got a few in mind. I don't think I'm going with one that has an entirely new charging handle. But I'm still not done with the decision process by any means.
Thanks, all!
BigFutz...let me know what kit you decide to go with. I've got a few in mind. I don't think I'm going with one that has an entirely new charging handle. But I'm still not done with the decision process by any means.
Thanks, all!
bigfutz
Well-Known Fanatic
11B3XCIB said:
The only one I've really looked at is the CMMG, I'm thinking the carbon steel version, as I don't really like the idea of shoving stainless up into my chromed chamber.
080-000-558WB CS Conversion Kit w/26 Round Mag
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=2700 ... ERSION-KIT
Can you provide links to what others you have found?
11B3XCIB
Well-Known Fanatic
Midway has a conversion made by Olympic:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/390173 ... moly-matte
I've also seen another brand (can't recall the name at the moment) at Palmetto State Armory but it's not on their website.
I will probably end up going with one of the variants of the CMMG kit. It'll be somewhere between 4 to 6 months before I buy it, because I'm making the 5.56mm suppressor purchase in a couple weeks...so I will have plenty of time during the NFA down time to find the exact one.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/390173 ... moly-matte
I've also seen another brand (can't recall the name at the moment) at Palmetto State Armory but it's not on their website.
I will probably end up going with one of the variants of the CMMG kit. It'll be somewhere between 4 to 6 months before I buy it, because I'm making the 5.56mm suppressor purchase in a couple weeks...so I will have plenty of time during the NFA down time to find the exact one.
bigfutz
Well-Known Fanatic
Here's some relevant info from another post:
Stephen73 said:
I bought a CMMG 22 conversion about a month ago and have put probably 150 rounds through it. My base is a Daniel Defense 16". Switching between the .223 and .22 BCg's is super simple and requires no other changes. Use everything as-is. Now the biggest issue I heard from a friend was when he pulled the trigger he asked "did it fire"? Of course the .22LR's don't have the same "kick" as the .223's but there is the cost factor. No issues with misfires. The manufacturer does make recommendations on manufacturer of ammo to avoid.
I had considered buying a .22 AR but reconsidered. If you buy a standard .223 AR this give you two options. If you're thinking about a 2nd rifle I would still get a standard .223 possibly without the BCG and drop in the .22 conversion. This option allows you to buy a .223 BCG later and have more options than just a .22 rifle.
I had considered buying a .22 AR but reconsidered. If you buy a standard .223 AR this give you two options. If you're thinking about a 2nd rifle I would still get a standard .223 possibly without the BCG and drop in the .22 conversion. This option allows you to buy a .223 BCG later and have more options than just a .22 rifle.
Tigerstripe
Well-Known Fanatic
HELLO, can you hear me now?
my dang computer has been broken since the shootzenfest and now im back.
i had to try to get my 2 cents worth in on this 22 conversion thing.
i have a full auto lower. first i went with a ceiner and they work well on semi, they can cause some extra headaches on auto till you get it right, and you will break firing pins so if you break one replace it with a titanium one. it will also fill the gas port hole in the barrel with lead. if you dont shoot a million rds a couple of 223 will blow it somewhere but i have completely plugged the hole with a bunch of auto fire.
i have 2 ceiners just because i got a second cheap, and had an SBR also.
i have to say your BEST option is a PSA deticated 22 upper. when i got mine for 369. it was a fantastic increase in accuracy. 16 to 1 twist. i tried to tell someone on the forum that an ar-22 was a waste because he could buy an Ar in 223 and a 22 upper.
check my vids at Davidautofull on you tube. the 22s from the 10.5 in bbl are a ciener kit. im not sure i have any there of the dedicated upper but there are vids of it from the last shootzenfest.
bottom line is i sweated more with the ciener because i was auto. the dedicated works great. either will work well on semi but the 16 to 1 twist makes a huge differenct on accuracy.
my dang computer has been broken since the shootzenfest and now im back.
i had to try to get my 2 cents worth in on this 22 conversion thing.
i have a full auto lower. first i went with a ceiner and they work well on semi, they can cause some extra headaches on auto till you get it right, and you will break firing pins so if you break one replace it with a titanium one. it will also fill the gas port hole in the barrel with lead. if you dont shoot a million rds a couple of 223 will blow it somewhere but i have completely plugged the hole with a bunch of auto fire.
i have 2 ceiners just because i got a second cheap, and had an SBR also.
i have to say your BEST option is a PSA deticated 22 upper. when i got mine for 369. it was a fantastic increase in accuracy. 16 to 1 twist. i tried to tell someone on the forum that an ar-22 was a waste because he could buy an Ar in 223 and a 22 upper.
check my vids at Davidautofull on you tube. the 22s from the 10.5 in bbl are a ciener kit. im not sure i have any there of the dedicated upper but there are vids of it from the last shootzenfest.
bottom line is i sweated more with the ciener because i was auto. the dedicated works great. either will work well on semi but the 16 to 1 twist makes a huge differenct on accuracy.
